| Author | Message | ||
     Jesper Rating: N/A |
Man I'm happy that I followed hornets recomendation, I bought a BenQ6240. It's very very nice. I Can get it up to 85hz, just worked out of the box, no flicker. No need for any DepthQ here. I'll post some more later now I have to get back to -you know what-. | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
Hey, congrats!. Do you see difference between right and left images or not? Blue ghosting? Do you use front projection or rear one? Congrats and enjoy! | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
No need for any DepthQ here :-). You should see head to head comparison of stereo non-optimzied projectors and DepthQ. Flickering, color deformation and blue ghosting are clearly visible ... We had made a lot of testing showing to people a normal projector and DepthQ . Quess, what was the people reaction ? | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the sincere (I guess) reply, but the feeling you give to people with this kind of answers is that it seems that you don't lose any chance to try to sell the products you trade with. Even if it would be as wonderful as your words want to suggest (I believe DepthQ is a good machine), maybe you forget that a product is not only its behaviour and "quality", it is a lot of additional things that together could be (and usually are) more important than a visual comparison (a subjetive comparison, after all...) On the other hand this is not the only references I have about non optimized stereo PJs, simply I ask for another one. I have other opinions from trusted people. Trusted, because I know how they are, and what they feel and what they look for. And they are trusted specially, because they are not "linked" to any 3Dstereo selling business. Sorry for this but your position is difficult as you work in stereoscopic matter, I understand it, nevertheless. About blue-ghosting, there are pretty different behaviours on this matter with diff. PJs. And ghosting from my experience is inexistant (at least in the PJ I tested). I am sad to see how a "professional" like you can speak so quickly, generalizing. It takes away your credibility of objetivity, at least for me. I would really appreciate objective advice and depth help from an experienced professional like you, taking care of the real "problem" of the guy, even if it means do not promote the "optimized" articles that you can sell. This is how customers are won. Believe me. Don't worry, I never made a purchase in AV matter without testing it before in seller's shop, and this will not be the exception. This is my opinion, of course. I hope do not offend you. That was not my objective. I tried to do a constructive criticism. Regards, | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
darkbluesky: I do not tell stereo on non-optimized projectors does not work. And I do not hide I was participating in InFocus DepthQ projector development (yes, my company sell it as well). I would realy like to give immediately very precise scientific based analyzis , why stereo-not optimized projectors can not from principial technical reasons give realy optimal image comparable to InFocus DepthQ output ... But I am not allowed to do this now - NDA reasons ... It is very common that you do not see a problem in quality if you have no comparison available. | ||
| Hornet Rating: N/A |
6240 had no blue ghosting, at 86 Hz, of course! Is little R/L color difference, after 1 minute of usage this is no binocular detecable, only after reversing of this (program start, on of of stereo).This can by reversed on previous stage with of/on stereo). From my sight no big problem. 6240 is good for home use (2D and 3D),2700 ANSI,86 Hz max refresh, XGA! for this price! The price/benefit ratio for my optimal. For perfectionist are on market Depthq (VGA), 3 chip DLP Barco,Christie,SIM.....astronomic prices (for my). For home use for "average peoples" the price is very important parameter! | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
I see that my postion is realy though :-(. I can speak so "quckly" becouse I know exactly what is wrong with stereo non-optimized projectors generaly and when I watch the result from them (we have 2 one in our company as well, but we use them for passive only). I see imemdiately all the problems they produce and for me it is hard to watch such image (probably profesional deformation ?) ... Anyway - I hope you will see sometimes head to head comparison yourself ... | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
Well, IMO your last post states clearly that you speak too quickly... Anyway, you have a position to defend, me not. PD. You don't know anything about my experience in head to head tests (and I have), but simply this is not the point of the conversation. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Nice discussion guys. I like your postings M.H so keep it up! All in all it's a matter of opinion. Since the DepthQ has a price range which is three times higher than the BenQ and the quality isn't three times as good(I think you have to agree with that M.H) it's not a hard choice for me since I'm not that rich. Then you have the price of the bulb, don't know the price for the DepthQ but it can't be that cheap(or is it?) and since I use it for other things than 3D gaming it feels that I'm not wasteing it on useless stuff like movies. I don't detect much of a difference between L/R images when it comes to stereo, sure there are some diffrences I guess but since the ghosting is very low it don't get in the way and I don't think about it when I'm playing.(sure it would be nice to see what the DepthQ has to offer) I use both rear and front projection, don't know yet which is going to be my final setup for 3D games. The good old shower curtain is fabulous :-) | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Jesper: The price of the bulb of DepthQ is identical to the price of a bulb of standard InFocus projector. | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
darkblusky: The point of the discusion is, you tell stereoscopcialy non-optimized projectors give perfect image. And I can prove they are far from this by both the function principle analysis, optical measurment and testers opinion. I hope it will be possibel to publish the data soon. | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
[M.H. says: darkblusky: The point of the discusion is, you tell stereoscopcialy non-optimized projectors give perfect image.] You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. You can re-read my post, and you will see that in any time I did not said DepthQ was equal or lower than a not stereo-optimized PJ, related to stereo quality. The point is simply there "is a lot of additional things that together could be (and usually are) more important". For example, -price, like hornet or jesper also says. -resolution (XGA vs VGA), -finality to be used at home (like Jesper says) -through ratio -lumens -personal taste of image reproduction (because this I told that a test is, at least in part, a subjective matter, I agree it is indispensable though) -etc This could lead a buyer to say "there is no need for DepthQ here" (and me to support this comment), without any intention of telling that the stereo quality of DepthQ (or other optimized stereo PJs) is worse than a normal one. Is like if a guy search for a city car to go Saturdays to supermarket, pick up child at school, etc, and buy an Opel Corsa, what do you think if some reseller tells him that Audi A3 has been a much better choice? Sure it has a better motor, dynamic response, etc, but IMO simply there is no need of an Audi A3. Really, this is the market behaviour, otherwise, if it would be enough with quality to decide a purchase only high tech products would be produced. My comments were mainly addressed to the fact of taking care of the particular case of each person. Taking caution of all factors, even the subjective ones. Nevertheless, and completely sincere, I don't want to get angry with anybody, and I really thank you for your valuable and from-long-time-ago contribution to these forums. Sincere here. On the other hand, I always thank any information about 3D stereo devices and experiences, like all people here, (about DepthQ or any other device capable of 3D). This kind of info is always welcome. Regards & thank you, | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
dakblusky: Thank you for explanation of your opinion. I do not like to be in conflict with other people as well - I only wanted to mention primary there is (I personaly belive significant) difference in image qulaity betwen stereo non-optimzied and optimized single schip DLP projectors and there exist principal technical reasons why stereo non-optimzied proejctors can not give as good image as stereo optimzied one. To determine how huge is this difetrence is stronlgy subjective and even if I will give exact mathematic description of the problems related to stereo non-optimzied proejctors the value of such prove will be limited. | ||
| Clyde Rating: N/A |
I have a Depth Q, and I have seen a BenQ 6240. I know the difference in quality (stereoscopically). There is no denying that "after" you experience the DepthQ , you would like to have it versus the Benq. Same as after sitting in an Audi you would love to have it (even to pick up groceries..comfort thats human nature) HOWEVER... i know the point that Darkblue is making.. ie. yes its 3 times the cost etc. What I personally feel is that people (gamers mostly) will buy the Benq for home stereo, and live with the limitations until others like acer, sony etc tune up their Vertical refresh to do 85 -100 on consumer projs to get a slice of the market.. The DepthQ - i believe as the front runner with no competetion at the moment could benefit a great deal by lowering its cost (and it will happen as market forces would dictate). my biggest prob was the in-famous fan noise on the infocus.. Still thats a minor problem if your watching 5.1 stereo surround movies or gaming anyway! .. but in a boardroom its audible. Cheers all | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
I must agree with Clyde according the sound fan noise ... But this is a problem common with other DLP projectros as well ... I had found only one solution - us high gain screen and run the proejctor in economic mode (when the fun does not work on full speed) .... | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Hi again. I didn't search all night but what I found was that the price of a bulb for the DephtQ was 620 dollars and the X3 was 299 dollars. But I guess you could find better prices. | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
I do not know where you were looking, but on the DepthQ WWW you can find the bulb price is 299 dolars: http://www.depthq.com/accessories.html Whwere did you find the $620 for the lamp ? It will be useful to put dealers selling such overpriced things on some black list. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Well, I searched little too fast yesterday. I went to the site and checked again. It was little too easy to misinterpret the information on the site. So in other words the information was incorrect, sorry. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: |
Yes, finally ready. I have put up my proj. in the ceiling two meters behind me. The screen is about one meter infront of me. The screen size is about 1.80 meters, diagonal. Since the proj is upside down and relativly high up I can have the screen pretty low. So the need for any backprojection is non existent. I am really pleased with the setup. For you flight nut out there I can recommend Saitek's X52, they're niiiiice. My only problem now is where do one get a pack of those vomit bags :-)  | ||
| Peter iak (Hornet) New member Username: Hornet Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Congratulations! With +1,0 diopters glasses in front of e-dim glasses, is bigger FOV and no acomodation and convergention of eyes, is better no eye discomfort. For tests can you use +1,0 cheap glasses. | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I see many DLP projectors from BenQ and other manufacturers on the projectorcentral web site that show high vertical refresh rates. The Benq PB6210 shows 100 hz and the Infocus LP70+ shows up to 130hz vertical. Will these work or are these just vertical rates that it will synch to but maybe it drops frames and really only does 60hz? I wish I could just take a laptop someplace that had all of these and see if there is any alternative to the Depthq other than 86hz projectors. I find it hard to believe that dlp projectors can't be made at a reasonable price with high refresh rates. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Vertical and horizontal refresh rate has little or none meaning when it comes to real refresh rate, I think :-/ That was my thought too, go around with a laptop and check them out. I think you have to do a real deep search to find any DLP that will work with higher Hz than 86. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
85 Hz not producing flicker? When I have 85 Hz in stero on my CRT with 3D-glasses I get flicker. It´s not much, but it´s definitely there. (Message edited by stereoviewer on April 06, 2006) | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Yes it is. Depend on what type of game you're playing. If you're realy into NHL I guess you should buy something with higher hz, if you could find it(unless you're rich). I only feel that is disturbing when it comes to bright games, when it's little darker I can't hardly detect the flicker. I'm sure the DepthQ is very nice but I don't have that kind of money. It's a matter of taste and preferences ofcourse. Since many years ago I've always wanted a nice flightsim so I'm happy. | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I really can't believe the technology is so complicated that they can't double the refresh rate on a 1024 X 768 projector...I really hope it becomes a standard on DLP projectors. The percentage of people that play games in 3d is low because it is just so difficult and expensive to do it without getting a headache. I have a pretty normal middle class income and I would pay about $1000 US dollars for 800X600 stereo like the depthq or up to $1600 for 1024X768 at 100-120 hz. I really can't see putting up $1200 now for a DP6240 unless I knew that anything better is more than 2 years away...arggggg.... | ||
| Peter iak (Hornet) New member Username: Hornet Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Hi, have Benq PB 6240, 86hz refresh XGA, flicker with bright picture of FS 2004 is litttle, wery accetable, for my absolutly no problem, good is use of projector in dark room. Price/benefit ratio is high and I satisfied for this money. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Its not THAT expensive with 100 Hz. This is a swedish site selling one for under $2,300 (and sweden is expensive): http://www.itonline.se/ Look at the BenQ PB8250. (Message edited by stereoviewer on April 06, 2006) | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
But can it really do 100hz without a big color problem or does it really accept 100hz but scale it down? I need to find a major dealer here in the Dallas/Ft Worth area... | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I can´t emagin they´d make a projector that gives you big color problems. But I´ve no idea really. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Lars, Vertical and horizontal sync doesn't mean that it can do 100hz. This is something else. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Vertical frequence(sync) for the BenQ6240 is 20-100hz. If that helps :-) | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
From an earlier post I read it seems it won't really do 100 and that might be for a MAC computer or something...this is all too confusing... | ||
| Miguel A. Giménez (Darkbluesky) New member Username: Darkbluesky Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
How the PJ can differenciate if the signal is MAC or PC? The resolution (1024x769 for example) is the same for both systems. (Message edited by Darkbluesky on April 07, 2006) | ||
| Peter iak (Hornet) New member Username: Hornet Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
PB 6240 works only max 86Hz The 8250 had the same XGA DLP chip, I have studied manuals from diff. PJ. The 6240 had in manual too 100 Hz for MAC compatible signal, only 85 for PC VGA signal. See pdf of manuals. Principial the DLP 1 chip Pjs have problems with refres ower 86Hz (problem with chip signal processing - signal bandwith).3 chip DLP PJs are good for 3D, only astronomic priced. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Why not try a fat 40" LCD TFT Tv with VGA-input instead? They are a bit more expenisive ($2000 and up), but considdering projector lamps only last about a year if you use them a lot, and the price for them being about $400, it´s actually cheaper in the long run with a LCD tv. They too come with 85 Hz, got about 12ms responsetime and resolution well above 1024x768 in general. There are LCD TFT screens at 40" that doesn´t differ at all comparing to regular PC TFT monitors, only the size and the price. Also with LCD tv´s you can watch regular tv without a complicated setup with cables acroos the room. Why haven´t anyone tried this yet? | ||
| Miguel A. Giménez (Darkbluesky) New member Username: Darkbluesky Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
IMO At least, some PJs can project (not only be feeded) at 100 Hz or 120 Hz, I have checked this with some Mitsubishi PJs. And moreover, according to the technical specifications given by people on Mitsubishi, who tried to help me in this stereo research and gave me some low level technical data, their chip signal processing circuit is compatible up to about 180 Hz. Unhappily it did not work in stereo because of other problems. (Message edited by Darkbluesky on April 07, 2006) | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
LCD's won't work. Way too much ghosting. It would have to be below 4ms response time just to compete with slow CRT monitors and even then it will be a pain to synch. Though apparently the edimensional drivers will now support this. I still hope someone will come across this thread that knows of a DLP that can handle 100hz or higher from a PC without too much color change. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
It seams that many people haven't got LCD/TFT working in pageflipping mode, if that's true then you have the problem of the -half resolution issue-(Line blanking/interlaced/Interleaved). Chris, I'll think you have to wait some time for that. | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Yep...and it's sad. 3d gaming is so much better than regular gaming, but because the affordable solutions have always been sub-par and caused headaches, most people gave up on it. Now we are at a time when the technology is capable at a good price, but companies do not believe it will sell enough to make it worth it. Imagine if the x-box 360 could output to a 3d projector and they got the price down to below $800 for a DepthQ... they would sell like crazy because nobody that tried it would want to play any other way. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
" Joined: Jan 12, 2006 Posts: 118 Posted: 2006-02-03 01:06 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i tested the glasses on my 15 inch lcd monitor and i was getting cool 3d. ive got an old samsung 151s lcd monitor... i did a search on its specs and it has a response time of 25ms. SLOW!!! even so.. it manages to run at 75Hz and i dont really notice flicker / ghosting and i was definately getting 3d effect with my e-d glasses i wld totally recommend these glasses to people! got my glasses 2 days after ordering so it was speedy too!" taken from http://forums.stereovision.net/viewtopic.php?topic=2426&forum=1&12 I too have red that a lot of ppl hasn´t got much success with 3D-glasses on LCD TFT´s, but obviously some have... | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ok, nice. But if you don't like 3D in 85hz why would you like it in 75hz? Just a thought. | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I think I am going to try the mirror solution here: http://www.crystalcanyons.com/Pages/TechNotes/DualMonitorDigitalViewing.shtm From what I read on Nvidia's forum it is flawless and has no reduction in brightness or ghosting. I figure if I was going to put up with those e-dimensional glasses I could just as well put up with keeping my head positioned without moving more than an inch or two. Not to mention it is stereo at whatever the highest res of your monitors are... I'll go price a couple 20 inch 4ms LCD monitors... they have links to the first surface mirrors for about $15. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
To Jesper: What I wrote above was a quote. The guy tested an old 75 Hz monitor, and 3D worked out nice on it it seems. And you are right, 85 Hz would be a lot better. Oh, and one other thing: How do you control the frequency for a LCD? And how does it relate to v-sunc? (Message edited by stereoviewer on April 09, 2006) | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Control the frequency? What do you mean? If you're talking about the hz it's just as any other monitor. V-sync and H-sync are something you can't change in that way. I guess it's just another specification for the monitor. I think I sort of understand it but not good enough to try to explain it. What I have read abou it tells me that it has nothing to do with real hz. But anyone, please be free to correct me. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I was referring to what you wrote "I Can get it up to 85hz". | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ok, I guess you know but it's just a matter of setting the hz in the controlpanel or whatever and check how high you can go. Usually with a monitor you get "signal out of range" or something like that. With the proj if I go too high I get a blue screen, very simple. What would be nice, and I think I had a program like that before, is to set the hz in one step at a time like 85-86-87 and so on. So if anybody have any suggestion about that it would be nice to know. Lars, vägarna förbi Bagarmossen kom in och kolla. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ok, I didnt think of that. Thanks. So why can´t you go all the way up to 100 Hz if that is max v-sync for your projector? Jesper, det kanske jag ska göra, jag bor i närheten (Ĺrsta), hehe. (Message edited by stereoviewer on April 10, 2006) | ||
| Chris F (Chrisdfw) New member Username: Chrisdfw Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I believe the trial version of Sci Tech Display Doctor would let you increase in small increments. | ||
| Peter iak (Hornet) New member Username: Hornet Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
You can use the control settings of windows control panel(custom timings), or Power strip software.I have only control panel, Benq PB 6240 on 86Hz (stabile), all is OK, really. For my this is enough, 3d stereo home projection of sims and games for my=resolved problem. | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I still don't know exactly what v-sync(frecuency) means but I think it's about what it can recieve. Then along the way the signal is f*ucked up since the proj doesn't work with 100hz internally. I tried the advanced timing options in the c.panel and I got it to 87hz but the proj says 86hz. But Hornet, I guess you only get it up to 86 but in stereo what happens then. I guess it comes down to 85 again since that's what it says in the nvidia control panel. Ofcourse one hz isn't much to talk about. Thanks chris, didn't find it, worked anyway. | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
I can´t seem to find "advanced timing otptions" in the controlpanel.  | ||
| Jesper Franzén (Jesper) New member Username: Jesper Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
So you don't have this?  | ||
| Lars Ahnland (Stereoviewer) New member Username: Stereoviewer Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2006 Rating: N/A |
Found it. Thanks. |
