| Author | Message | ||
     Ray Price Rating: N/A |
http://www.simkits.com/product.php?prodid=304 | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
How bright does something have to be inorder for this to work? IF you used a rear projection setup onto a screen and had this infront of the screen would it also make that image bigger, not having to use so much space for the projector to get that big of a screen size? M | ||
| Lars Ahnland Rating: N/A |
Looks like the same as this, wich is one tenth the price!!! http://www.worldwidevision.nl/winkel/zoekuk.php3?artikelnr=Low%20Vision%26Magnifiers SIMKITS try to scam us! The product looks very interesting though... | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
That's the same thing I bought for $50 US. You're right! What a scam. John | ||
| Ray Price Rating: N/A |
Where did you buy this from in the US? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I can't remember the name of the place. It was a supply company for the visually impaired. I'll look to see if I can find it. John | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Found it. http://www.maxiaids.com/store/default.asp Just type tv into their search window. John | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Here is another good supplier of fresnel lenses that focuses its usage on virtual reality: http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/index.htm They provide kits that attach to your monitor, and the price isn't bad (around 60-70 dollars complete with kit, depending on where you live). | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
John how is that? Any godd making the picture that big.. You think your better off with a projector? I have a projector but want to know if a lens like this does make the image alittle more indepth.... Mike | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I know that question isn't addressed to me, but this could be your answer: http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/immersive_vr/images/fresnel_illustration.gif,http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/immersive_vr/images/fresnel_illustration.gif | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
sorry messed up on the link http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/immersive_vr/images/fresnel_illustration.gif | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I order for me to get the FOV from a monitor that is even close to the FOV that I get from the 10' projector screen I would have to sit 6" from a 21" monitor. The perspective on the PJ is totally life-size. No comparison what so ever. I cut my Fresnel down to 14"x11" and that, while better than just the monitor, still does not compare to the PJ. John | ||
| John Rating: N/A |
Will depth of field be effected when viewing dvd movies. ? Do you get somewhat of a 3d effect from using a fresnel lens from the increased focal length or is the size of the image the only thing changed? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Hi People, A fresnel doesn't just give you a larger screen. It extends the focal plane to a point at infinity so your eyes are focused way behind the monitor. So the effect of using a fresnel is more immersive than sitting in front of a very large screen because the large screen (i.e. projector) simply gives you a bigger image. It does not extend the focal plane. The great thing about the fresnel is that it also enlarges the monitor screen to give you a movie theater sized image. The other thing is that the fresnel can be used with 3d LCS glasses for true 3d gaming. The lens we use (and sell for gamers) is set at a distance of 4.5 inches from the screen (although this can be extended to 7 if necessary). At this distance (and with your eyes quite close to the fresnel) then sense of immersion is even greater. "I order for me to get the FOV from a monitor that is even close to the FOV that I get from the 10' projector screen I would have to sit 6" from a 21" monitor" - What you haven't mentioned is the horrendous cost of a decent projector. Our lens can be bought ready-assembled in a housing that attaches to a monitor. Cost for the assembled system is £75 including shipping. It outperforms the ultra expensive I-glasses HMD which retails for $1499. Our fresnel system also outperforms a cheap projector because it's able to extend the focal depth rather than simply giving you a large screen. It does both and yet it's not limited to 800x600. 800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost). Our lens works at any resolution (based on your monitor/GFX card). An 800x600 video projector will cost many hundreds of pounds and still only offers an obsolete 800x600. If you're very rich you might be lucky enough to own a 1024x768 projector... Our fresnel can quite happily give you large screen immersive gaming at resolutions of 1600 or higher! | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
Extending the focal plane might not be good to centain games. For a flight nut like me. I want the cockpit right in front of me, not infinity from me. | ||
| Mike Rating: N/A |
I'd like to buy one but don't want to wait 5 weeks to get it.. Where is there a place in the US that sells a good quality 1??? So extending the focal plane is what? Makes it seem farther away? Is that what you meant BOPrey? IM woundering if for racing this wouldn't be cool at all. Mike | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"I want the cockpit right in front of me, not infinity from me. " - No. It doesn't move objects into the distance. The cockpit is still exactly where it normally would be (right in front of you). The difference is that your eyes are no longer focused on the surface of the monitor screen. It's the same with 3d LCS glasses. They allow your eyes to focus in the distance. Analogy: If you're driving a real car or flying a plane. Are your eyes focused on the cockpit glass or the world outside. The extended focal plane is one of the reasons why the fresnel was chosen for military simulators many years ago. Just to reiterate: Extended focal plane does not mean objects look further away. It simply means that the fresnel creates a more lifelike experience than sitting in front of a regular monitor screen or a video projector. Once again: A video projector simply gives you a bigger image. It does nothing to extend the focal plane. Also the 800x600 or 1024x768 resolution of most video projectors means sacrificing game detail. 800x600 in particular is totally unsuitable for the latest texture rich games. Why then would you want to enlarge that 800x600 to cover a large projector screen? Extending the focal plane is great for all 3d games. Especially good for flight sims. I suggest you try the system rather than speculating when you don't have practical experience of the system. We at icetec-uk specialise in high-resolution fresnel lenses for immersive gaming. Our lenses maintain image quality and work at any screen resolution unlike the VR Helmet or Projector. Once you've tried our system then you don't want to revert to flat 2d gaming. We also recommend the use of 3d LCS glasses and body vibration systems to complete the experience. We're getting a new batch of lenses in this week and we will also be selling the system fully assembled and ready to attach to your monitor. When you want to revert to normal use then the fresnel hood simply lifts off the front of the monitor. Raf Baker www.icetec-uk.com PS. "IM woundering if for racing this wouldn't be cool at all. " - It's funny but you dudes seem to have formed exactly the wrong idea about the fresnel and extended focal plane. Flight sims and racing games are what the system is especially good for! Anything where there is motion in the z-plane. The system is unbelievably good for such simulations and of course for the latest FPS games. Even the old classics like Doom and Duke Nukem are brought back to life with the fresnel. To describe the sensation: It's like you've been dropped into the game-world. You feel like you're actually there. This is why the system causes dizzyness for the first few days of use. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Hi "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)" Just a quick question but I don't understand, what do you mean by this? Back in Voodoo days Savage (a 3d graphics card manufacturer) released a texture compression method for high resolution 4096*4096 textures...at the time gaming was limited to 800*600 max... I'm not sure that even today textures of this size are used extensively... What is lost exactly? Thanks | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Running the latest 3d games in 800x600 isn't a good idea. Even if you use large amounts of anti-aliasing you still lose detail. The latest games are optimised for 800x600 but intended for higher resolution. 800x600 looks poor on a CRT monitor. It looks even worse on a HMD such as i-glasses PC3d or when enlarged and projected onto a video screen. If you're unable to understand why this is so then I would suggest you contact some of the big game design companies and talk to them about it. "I'm not sure that even today textures of this size are used extensively... " - It's not simply the size of the texture but the lack of pixels at 800x600. First person shooters especially need higher pixel resolutions because the latest games such as UT2004, Far Cry and Painkiller use highly detailed textures. Those textures actually serve to clutter a low-res screen and make it hard to distinguish characters in the distance or under certain lighting conditions. On a low-res screen characters can be hard to distinguish from the background textures. Such games are designed to be played at much higher resolutions. It therefore follows that any display system (such as i-glasses PC3d or an SVGA projector) that limit your pixel resolution to 800x600 are unsuitable for the latest generation of games. It's simply old technology and we have long since moved on from SVGA resolution in games. This is not theory or idle speculation. It has been clearly demonstrated. | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
feathers, While it might be fine to extend the focal plane for external objects, when I play my flight sims, I spend a lot of time looking at instruments. I would like to see them as close to me at possible. I wonder if by using stereo could bring the focal plane in front of me just for the cockpit. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Ok. Firstly... Some flight sims have both a 2d cockpit and a 3d cockpit. MS-Flightsim has both. Since the 2d one is nothing more than a flat sprite object then it always appears at the front of the screen even when using 3d LCS glasses. If you switch to the 3d cockpit view when using LCS glasses then you actually will have to adjust the stereo depth of the glasses to suit the game or simulation. You want to adjust the stereo separation so the cockpit and world's 3d is natural rather than exaggerated. With Nvidia stereo drivers and LCS glasses (such as Elsa revelator or e-Dimensional) then the separation can be contolled in-game via Ctrl-F3 and F4. It should be stressed that this stereo separation adjustment is only applicable when using stereoscopic hardware. It does not apply when using a fresnel. A fresnel doesn't give stereoscopic 3d. Therefore your cockpit's distance won't be any different. It's just that your eyes are no longer focused on the surface of the monitor but at some far point in the distance. This helps to convince your brain that the image is real. Although your eyes are focused at a distance behind the monitor. The images don't look distant. Their distance doesn't change therefore your cockpit doesn't look smaller. On the contrary it looks BIGGER! Why? Because the fresnel gives you the effect of sitting on the front row of a movie theater. It magnifies the image but at the same time it extends the focal plane into the distance. Nothing looks smaller or further away... It looks bigger. The only thing the extended focal plane gives you is an increased sense of realism rather than making anything smaller. Once you try a fresnel system then you will understand. The issue of things being too small or cockpit's being pushed into the distance only becomes an issue when you use stereoscopic 3d hardware. And even then it's not a problem since you simply have to adjust the stereo-separation accordingly for a particular game. Extending the cockpit outside of the monitor would be difficult. It's not relevant when discussing fresnel lenses (for reasons explained above) but when using 3d LCS glasses then you will notice that on many 3d games - objects can sometimes pop out of the screen. If you're using FS Flightsim and you have the 2d cockpit selected. It will always appear at the monitor depth (or fresnel depth). There is no way to change the depth of a 2d object when it doesn't exist as a true 3d object. If you select the 3d cockpit in the sim then you can adjust how far it extends behind the monitor into the distance but if the object doesn't want to come out of the screen then it won't.. There is no way to force it out! There are many games I've seen where objects have come out of the screen at certain moments (using 3d LCS)... Games that spring to mind are Starwars Pod Racer and many racing games/simulations where a car or vehicle will extend out of the screen. If you increase the stereo separation then you will increase the amount by which the vehicle extends out of the screen. But if the object is positioned inside the monitor then there is no way you can persuade it to come out. If you want to see your cockpit as close as possible then I would recommend the fresnel system. It will magnify the image to a point where it feels you're actually sitting there in the cockpit. You could also use the fresnel with LCS glasses for true stereoscopic imagery. LCS+Fresnel works best with FPS and Racing games. It's also pretty spectacular with flight sims such as FS and Lock-on. I would also say that fresnel is more important than LCS. You can get by without LCS but fresnel is essential (because of the large-screen viewing with extended focal plane). But LCS+fresnel generally work very well together. I myself use e-dimensional glasses together with the fresnel. The sense of immersion is truly incredible! I would also suggest that if you're going to use such a system then you complete it by adding force-feedback vibrations for your body. This is an essential component required for a realistic and full sense of immersion. You're really wasting your time if you use any kind of VR without the vibrations. Look on eBay for Aura Interactor. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
In summary: Although the fresnel works by extending the focal plane into the distance. It also magnifies the screen at the same time. The result is that your eyes are focused into the distance but everything looks very big! The image extends out to your peripheral vision. You will see everything much closer although this virtual image is projected into the distance. Again I will use the analogy of the car windshield... If you sit in a car and drive... Will your eyes be focused on the windshield? (hopefully not). Your eyes are focused onto the world beyond the glass screen. But does that world appear very distant? No. Why? Because it extends out in front of you enough to cover your peripheral vision (it's a very big projection). Now, if you sat in a car and saw the world projected onto the glass windshield then that would be pretty odd, yes? It would feel unnatural. And so it is with a fresnel versus regular monitor. The fresnel gives you a more realistic and true to life experience because of that extended focal plane. But you don't have to worry about things looking smaller because the lens enlarges to a point where even your peripheral vision is covered (the crucial point here is that the fresnel must be of high enough optical quality and with a high enough groove density to present those images without any distortion - in other words you can't simply use any old fresnel). The result is that you instantly feel immersed in that game or simulation! | ||
| Ku Rating: N/A |
Well pluck my feathers!!! You said alot! What was that again LOL, really I have 1 question for you feath. IF I wanted to use my Matrox card and use 3 20" CRT's what would you say of setting up 3 Lens? I saw a site where the fella made a cockpit and had a setup of 3 lens, not sure if he bought the bugeye set that cost $2,000.. But I'd like to know if you could have a kit for 3 or should I try myself.. Let me know when you have some lens in so I can order sum!! I hope though I can have it soon, don't fairy it over.. e-mail me... Ku | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I had to repeat myself several times as well. I really hate that! :-) Multi fresnel setup: I haven't tried it although i Know it's possible. You'd have to angle and position the monitors and lenses so that you didn't have a gap between the monitor images. That sounds tricky. The question is whether that 3 lens array would be better than a single large fresnel with large screen monitor? You would probably start by positioning the two end lenses so they were angled in towards you (sounds obvious right?). The objective is to get rid of the gap between the 3 monitors so you have one unbroken image. Actually I think this would be easier to achieve than it sounds especially if the fresnel is slightly smaller than the monitor. You'd have to play around with the distance of the lenses from the monitors and the setup would also be quite sensitive to your viewing position. I will give you a discount on the lenses since you're ordering 3. Results are pretty spectacular even with a single fresnel and 1 x CRT. Anyone who wants to order a ready-built system that attaches to your monitor (upto 19") can do so (send an email or contact us through our website). Ku: Our fresnel lenses should also be good for your 3 lens project since it would be beneficial to have the lens slightly smaller than the CRT's. Lenses are due in today or tomorrow. | ||
| john Rating: N/A |
That really sounds amazing. Glass+lens+large CRT +halflife2=yourself feeling like your in a action movie. That would be a increible experience to have.Can't wait to get one of these lens to try for myself and a pair of glasses. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Hi feathers "Running the latest 3d games in 800x600 isn't a good idea. Even if you use large amounts of anti-aliasing you still lose detail. The latest games are optimised for 800x600 but intended for higher resolution. 800x600 looks poor on a CRT monitor. It looks even worse on a HMD such as i-glasses PC3d or when enlarged and projected onto a video screen." So what you are saying is that an extra 224 pixels (1024-800) and an extra 124 pixels to (764-600) makes a significant difference... So a character or object 10 pixels high in the distance on an 800*600 system becomes 11 pixels high at 1024? If thats a significant difference...I don't think so. Your arguements are particularlly not convincing especially as you are selling a product on these forums... For instance can you name ANY recent games (last two years) that you can play at 1600 by 1200 with all settings and textures high without a £300+ video card? Now add in the extra overhead when you enable 3d stereo. Opps, even people with high end systems are again limied to 800*600 or at most 1024*764...and even then details and textures would have to be lowered to get acceptable frame rates... So most if nor all 3d stereo gaming on games released over the last 2 years are limited to either 800*600 or 1024*764 resolutions. Which as you state: "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)" So what are you trying to say? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"So what are you trying to say? " - People who spend large amounts of money on the latest GFX card technology don't want to play their games in SVGA. Are you playing games in SVGA? "So what you are saying is that an extra 224 pixels (1024-800) and an extra 124 pixels to (764-600) makes a significant difference... " - I shouldn't have to say it. It can be clearly demonstrated with any new 3d game. There is a big difference in image quality between 800x600 and 1024x768. The difference is so pronounced that we don't recommend using our fresnel at SVGA resolution. 1024 works very well with a fresnel and of course if you can go higher than that's even better. Many people are able to run their games at 1280x768 these days. Many people I know don't even play as low as 1024. "Opps, even people with high end systems are again limied to 800*600 " - No they're not. I use a FX5900 128mb and it can easily manage 1024 or 1152 in stereoscopic 3d and with high frame rates. "So most if nor all 3d stereo gaming on games released over the last 2 years are limited to either 800*600 " - No recent games are limited to SVGA because most high-end gamers regard SVGA as obsolete. SVGA is particularly unsuitable for FPS games because it's important to be able to detect threat from long range. Too much information is lost and the problem is compounded when a game has large amounts of textures (UT2004 for example). You haven't mentioned what games you play or what system you have. The system I use is ready and waiting for Doom 3 and HL2. I don't run any games at SVGA even in stereoscopic 3d. The GFX hardware is able to give smooth framerate at 1024 or higher. When I mentioned 1600x1200 I wasn't suggesting that everyone uses that resolution or that it's the minimum for decent gameplay. 1024x768 is a good choice in terms of quality versus framerate. "Your arguements are particularlly not convincing especially as you are selling a product on these forums... " - That's a pretty lame comment. Just because we sell fresnel systems doesn't mean we can't give honest opinions about gaming and VR. "Yes" I sell fresnel systems. So this means my words are less convincing? In other words I am likely to be lying in order to sell my product? I don't particularly care whether you are convinced. It would be very difficult to convince someone who believes there is no significant difference between SVGA and 1024x768 (XGA). If you believe that then you're not likely to listen to any commonsense. There will always be a certain percentage of the population who insist on playing games at 640x480 or SVGA. I don't think you'll convince too many pro gamers or 3d game designers that SVGA is the best resolution. Perhaps you're an I-glasses PC3d user or SVGA projector user? In which case you also have a particular reason to defend your outdated and overpriced hardware. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
A word of advice: If you're intending to use the fresnel system... Ensure that your GFX Card can run at 1024x768 or higher. SVGA is really not recommended! John: "Glass+lens+large CRT +halflife2=yourself feeling like your in a action movie. " - The system really draws you into the game. You feel immersed. It works so well that it even breathes new life into the old games like Doom. I've been playing doom again recently because of the fresnel lens. Painkiller is also incredible. With the combination of fresnel, LCS 3d glasses and Aura vibration system it really comes to life! It's the scariest game I've played! It's almost as if the game was just waiting for such a system in order to do it justice. We have e-dimensional and Elsa Revelator LCS glasses to provide the stereoscopic imagery. If you want to save some money then buy a cheap pair of Elsa Revelators from eBay. There is no difference in performance although the Elsa's will only work with Geforce cards. For ATI users e-dimensional have drivers that enable stereo 3d support with games. I don't know how effective the drivers are though. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
PPS. Just in case anyone is wondering why I'm making comments about the i-glasses PC3d. We've tried it. It has severe design problems. The internal optics lack any anti-reflective coating. The front optics are highly polished to the extent that they reflect any and all light (from the internal LCD's to ambient light entering externally). The result is that the image has a milky haze that significantly reduces the clarity. That's a big problem on a system with a very poor quality SVGA! Contrast is also very poor because of the lack of AR coated optics and coupled with the light from the LCD's. You will never see true black - just washed-out greys. Even worse is the thermal stability problem. The Atmel microcontroller inside the PC3d (formally i-glasses SVGA 3d) generates a lot of heat. Although the HMD case is made from Magnesium in order to help dissipate the heat - the unit still gets hot. Why is this a problem? Because the micro LCD's are heat-sensitive and the heat causes random colour and brightness changes. The changes are so severe that you might be playing your games in normal colour one moment and then shades of purple the next! The manual suggests adjusting the on-screen brightness/contrast when this happens. This is not good advice since those controls are accessed via sub-menus. The solution we found was to add a mini-fan to the top of the i-glasses. It was able to keep the unit cool and so the colour changes were much less frequent. Unfortunately we couldn't do anything to improve the awful image quality of two mini-sized SVGA displays. SVGA is bad enough on a CRT... You can imagine how bad it is on two 0.6 inch displays! Games lose all detail. FPS games are unplayable because you don't have enough image clarity to see your opponent shooting at you from only a few meters away! And for this hardware you can expect an offical price of $1499. This is the reason we got into fresnel technology. SVGA is no longer sufficient for the latest games and even XGA military VR Helmets lack the image quality of a regular CRT monitor! So for anyone who thinks "Your arguements are particularlly not convincing especially as you are selling a product on these forums... " - I can tell you that we are selling fresnels because of our experience with that other technology! The fresnel delivers immersive VR where the SVGA HMD cannot. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Having used a Fresnel with a Sony Trinitron 19" monitor I would have to say that Feathers is correct regarding the added depth that is experienced when using just a Fresnel with a monitor. Adding shutter glasses to the mix makes for a wide FOV with true 3D. the difference with and without the Fresnel while using shutter glasses was extreme to say the least. My flight and fighter simulation games were WAY better with the Fresnel. I understand his point about the 800x600 resolution of projectors. there is some fidelity lost at that low a resolution. Although 1024x768 compression with 4xaa and 8x ansio will make up for that loss in most cases and you can still use your shutter glasses. The main benny of a projector is a DVD quality home theater that a rear projection TV can't even come close to matching for 1/4 the cost. I for one highly recommend a Fresnel lens for gaming. Both stereo and non-stereo. John | ||
| john Rating: N/A |
Lots of good information... feathers. You have explained it out well. Does the immersiveness make things feel like there miles in the distance, like when you look over a mountain range? Or a monster that is twenty feet plus tall, feel and look that big on that setup? I have used 3d glasses with a 21in monitor before. I have viewed the screen very close,{8ins or so}that all you could see was the screen and things look very big and showed great depth. Everything started to feel big, like real life.Monsters and buildings looked huge and made it feel like you where in that world for awhile. It was a diferent story when you moved away for the screen , then it looks like your just viewing the action, as opposed to being in the game .I can see how this could really work extremely well with the lens.Making it even far better VR immersion! It's to bad most people have,nt pick up on this stuff before. It's increible technology that will not send you to the poor house. Where is a lot of poor information out there, but "feather "you seem to really know your stuff. I can't wait for halflife 2 and use that setup . Really cool stuff! | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers I can't stand grandstanding or BS or salesmanship especially on a hobbiest bulletin board. Anyone who plays a significant amount of games in stereo 3d will know that your comments are rubbish. Try Far Cry...or go back as far as Postal 2 or earlier. Simply put playing in stereo 3d is the equivilent of running a game at double the resolution. So 1024 by 764 becomes the equivilient of 2048 by 1536...Even a FX5900 would struggle with that let alone with the details turned up to take advantage of higher resolution textures... By the way I have a higher end system than you and there are very few games that can be played with all details high at 1024 and above in Stereo 3d. No texture information is lost if you use the highest detail settings no matter what screen resolution you use. If you have to turn the details down (to preseve framerates) then you start to use compressed textures (then palletted textures) to run games then you really do lose information... You have stated that "The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)" Please give a link to a developers or technical web site which supports this statement...or please explain in detail why texture sizes matter at all with respect to screen resolution. By the way this board is about Stereo 3d gaming NOT normal gaming - enhanced with a lens or not. John (non Anon) check out some of the technical sites about half life 2. If you think using high resolution textures and high screen resolutions are going to work on your set up with any of the latest games I think you will be surprised... As an example check these offical Doom3 benches http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQyLDI= These are 1600 high details but on a NVIDIA's GeForce 6800GT (how many people can afford this card)...crank that res up to 2048 and watch that frame rate tumble...And this card is at least twice as fast as the 5900... If you read any developer plans, texture sizes and level complexity have increased. For instance to play Doom3 on Ultra settings would need 500Meg of texture memory else a lot of swapping and massively reduced performence...On a 256Meg 5th gen card you'd use compressed textures and for lower end cards GF3s and 4s palleted textures. This has nothing to do with screen resolution or the subsequent the quality of the textures on the screen. What it means is that the closer you get to an object the more detail will be seen... Further shaders (sm1, sm2, sm3) are now applied to base textures along with texture, bump and light mapping which have a much more pronounced effect on image quality... Either that or Id and others have spent 3-5 years creating new engines for no gain at all after all they could have just carried on increasing texture resolutions... and don't get me started on AA and AF which were implemented simply to allow games to be played at lower resolutions to keep framerates high, whilst maintaining image quality - by removing jaggies and preserving texture information viewed at angles. By the way thats also why the Doom3 benches don't have AA enabled at 1600 up...not only would that effect the framerates drastically but also it is generally acceped that AA on resolutions of 1600 and above are not worth the 'hit' on performence for the very marginal gain image quality. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I will put it very simply in order to move on from this time-wasting... I have an FX5900 128mb. I don't play games below 1024x768 I don't have a desire to set all games to 'ultra' graphic detail. I have most games set to high detail level. Why not use ultra? Because I don't have the latest and fastest graphics card. I can set the res to 1024 or 1280 and high detail level and get smooth framerate (Painkiller,UT2004,Rallisport challenge, Uru etc etc). Would I be better off using Ultra settings and SVGA resolution? No. It has been tried and it's unsuitable especially where VR hardware is concerned. You might be able to get away with SVGA on a regular gaming system and especially where stereo 3d is used. You won't get away with it on vr hardware like the i-glasses PC3d! Too much information is lost and cranking up the details to ultra won't help you one bit! Likewise we don't recommend SVGA for the fresnel either. It's not an issue of texture quality. It's an issue of lack of pixels=very poor image quality when used with vr hardware. Texture rich games like UT2004 actually become a hindrance with the i-glasses PC3d. The textures only serve to clutter an already poor quality image. You seem to be the one obsessed with ultra settings not me. SVGA is not suited for the immersive setup we use. Nor is it suited to the i-glasses PC3d. If you can get away with SVGA on a non-immersive system then go and be happy. We can't use SVGA in our configuration because the drop in pixels from 1024 to 800 is too great. This is also the case with the i-glasses PC3d. The SVGA resolution is just too poor to display the latest games. I get the feeling you don't have much experience with VR technology and that is what we're talking about here. I would suggest you go and try some i-glasses PC3d as well as our fresnel and then if you still feel like arguing all day long then I will put out a wanted ad for new buddies you can play with. "By the way this board is about Stereo 3d gaming NOT normal gaming - enhanced with a lens or not. " - You seem to have some issues to deal with. It looks like you have control issues. A need to control things and people around you. I can accept that you find SVGA works for you without vr hardware and especially when using LCS 3d glasses! It is not suitable in our application or where the HMD VR is concerned. John anon and John: "I understand his point about the 800x600 resolution of projectors. there is some fidelity lost at that low a resolution." - Now imagine how bad those losses are on 0.6" LCD displays? (i-glasses PC3d"). "The main benny of a projector is a DVD quality home theater that a rear projection TV can't even come close to matching for 1/4 the cost. " - I reckon so! "make things feel like there miles in the distance, like when you look over a mountain range? Or a monster that is twenty feet plus tall, feel and look that big on that setup? " - Yes. "feel" is the key word. The fresnel makes things very big but the extended focal plane makes you feel like you're there. It immerses you in the game or simulation! "It's to bad most people have,nt pick up on this stuff before" - Too much hollywood hype around the VR Helmet. Hollywood was quick to cash in on it's appeal in movie storylines. Of course this was great advertising for those companies who wanted to sell HMD systems! What really surprises me is that there really isn't very much said about the i-glasses PC3d in reviews. There are very few independant online reviews. The product has severe problems and yet people aren't aware until they buy the system! When I sold my fan-modified I-glasses HMD - the person who bought it promptly put it up for sale again. Why? It was disappointing (in his words). I spent several months trying to get a usable quality image from the system. One thing you will find yourself doing with the PC3d is constantly adjusting the brightness, contrast and colour controls both in your game and on the helmet. You are compelled to do this because the image never looks right. There were a few times when the image would look ok in one game and then when you'd load another game it would look terrible. It was a no-win situation and eventually I conceded defeat. SVGA on a HMD just doesn't work! For me the fresnel was a last desperate attempt to get a workable vr. The first fresnel I tried was the cheap flexible (thin-sheet) measuring 8x6". The image quality was terrible because of the low optical quality and the low density of the facet rings. However it was still sufficient to demonstrate the potential of the fresnel for gaming! I actually had to stop using that lens after a few days due to headaches and eye-strain! The lenses we sell now are of high enough optical quality that headaches and eye-strain aren't a problem. As far as I'm concerned there is no longer the need to look for HMD's to provide immersive gaming. It may be years before high-resolution HMD's emerge (even Kaiser Electro-optics military hmd's only extend to 1024x768!). In the fresnel we have a cheap vr solution that doesn't limit the user to a very poor SVGA. It doesn't have the same appeal as sticking a helmet on your head and so of course it hasn't been glamorised or publicised by the press or hollywood! | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Anyone who plays a significant amount of games in stereo 3d will know that your comments are rubbish. " - Are you specifically talking in stereo 3d? If so then that is a different matter. Nvidia also state in their stereoscopic introduction that stereo effectively increases the resolution as well. SVGA on a 2d screen is unacceptable. In stereo 3d using LCS then it's better. I would use SVGA in stereo if necessary but I certainly wouldn't run in SVGA without the stereo! SVGA is not recommended for use with fresnel in 2d. In 3d it's probably acceptable (although I personally still run at 1024). | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers no I'm not a control freak. Nor am I motivated by selling my products on a public forum...dedicated to 3d NOT 2d gaming. Unlike yourself. Niether do I like it when people say one thing about how things don't work (when it suits them) and then the opposite when it does. Its not right to claim something as fact when in truth it isn't. If you think todays games are unsuitable for 800*600 then fine. Just don't claim that magically another 200 pixels wide and 100 or so deep makes a significant difference. It doesn't. What matters when playing a game is: Frames per second (no one can enjoy a slide show) AA (to remove jaggies) AF to preserve textures that are displayed Details/texture rich stuff relates to the textures used before they hit the screen. So high or ultra details use textures with minimal/no compression. Low detail use lower quality textures (even down to 8bit). Why is this important? Well for performence these textures are loaded into video memory - thats why graphics cards have so much these days! Lets take an extreme example of a texture rich game - Doom 3 for instance. At Ultra would need a 512Meg video card, high a 256 and medium 128...low is for gf4 and 3 type cards and at this level colour information is also removed from the textures (32bit to 16 or 8). Else you get a lot of shuffling of texture information and then slideshow levels of frames per second. Thus you can play a texture rich game at 800*600 with superb texture quality. To enjoy a similar IQ experience to that offered by 1600*1200 you have to turn on AA and AF. This is why these features were developed in the first place, as playing games a high resolutions (1024 and above), at high frame rates was simply not possible. This is also why even Ids offical benchmarks do not use AA at 1600*1200 as it is generally accepted that there is only a marginal improvement on image quality using AA (given its hit on FPS at this screen res) as its primary function is to remove jaggies along diagnals which would be minimal at this res anyway. Which brings me to your final post "Nvidia also state in their stereoscopic introduction that stereo effectively increases the resolution as well" Stereo 3d gaming does not increase the resolution of anything. What Nvidia is trying to explain is the apparent higher quality image gained if using stereo3d at a particular screen resolution. This is down to the fact that the left and right images are generated from sightly different perspectives but our brains combine them. This is in fact very similar to the first attempts at AA to remove jaggies or even ATI's new/forthcomeing feature of 'Temporal AA'. It also has the effect of removing some of the artifects created on oblique textures in a similar manner to AF. So to summerise. 800 by 600 with high details and AA AF enabled will give a similar IQ quailty to 1600*1200. Once moving or panning around these differences are unobservable. If you have the investment in hardware 1600*1200 with AF (AA if you feel you can see a difference and it doesn't kill your framerate) with high settings will give the best image quality. In stereo3d 800*600 and 1024*764 with some AA and AF - high details - will give excellent image quality. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"I can't stand grandstanding or BS or salesmanship especially on a hobbiest bulletin board. " - You believe you are superior to others. "Your arguements are particularlly not convincing especially as you are selling a product on these forums... " - Another example of inflated ego (it's all about what you like or dislike). The person doesn't even have the decency or respect to sign their name. They just post anonymous attacks! Analysis: "Niether do I like it when people say one thing about how things don't work (when it suits them) and then the opposite when it does. " - Once again it's all about what your inflated ego likes or dislikes. I have been patient with you. That is obviously a waste of time. You're now calling me a liar once again (something you've done repeatedly). I will explain it once again in very simple terms: SVGA is unsuitable and the majority of users are able to run at XGA or higher. Most of the people I know are running at XGA (1024) or 1280 but this also depends on the game. I don't have any friends who run at SVGA. When you (anon) posted your first attack - I didn't realise you were talking specifically about stereoscopic (LCS 3d) users. You later explained more clearly that you were specifically talking about stereoscopic users and SVGA. "Stereo 3d gaming does not increase the resolution of anything. What Nvidia is trying to explain is the apparent higher quality image gained if using stereo3d at a particular screen resolution. " - And that's exactly what I said when I used the word "effectively". From this point in I will show you the same respect and courtesy you show towards others. Try to read and understand a simple statement: Nvidia state that stereoscopic 3d effectively increases the resolution. But of course you're so determined to find ways to attack that you even have to misread and then contradict me on that! You have now accused me of changing my statements (because your ego is telling you that i crumpled under the immense weight of your attacks). I will explain this for the sake of others on this forum (since your ego will always prevent you from listening to somoene else): I didn't realise the anon-attacker was referring specifically to stereoscopic 3d when he started crapping-on about the joys of SVGA. I have enough experience and enough honesty to be able to agree with him that things are different in stereo 3d at SVGA. Nvidia themselves make reference to this. I don't know anyone who uses SVGA in non-stereo. It's just not necessary. Although the attacker has made an immediate judgement about my motives for posting on this forum (ie. to sell lenses) - If you look at the top few threads you will find one that mentions my website. That is the reason I came to this forum - in order to reply to that message. As far as the attacker is concerned - because I happen to sell fresnel lenses then everything I say must therefore be a lie and a ploy to sell fresnel lenses (this is pre-teen mentality). It doesn't occur to the attacker that just perhaps, I have a real interest in vr or that I'm selling fresnel lenses because of my bad experiences with other types of vr product? The problem is that when you believe absolutely in your reality then you are making a fundamental mistake. There are no absolutes. There is no absolute truth as the anon-attacker believes. There is only relative truth. The attacker has made judgements about my motives without any investigation. Just because he doesn't happen to like my comments about SVGA. This tendency towards immediate and absolute judgements about others shows a need for the attacker to remain in control. It is clear that the attacker knows something of computer graphics technology but it is also evident that his knowlegde of vr hardware is somewhat limited. If I continue to justify my words to the attacker then the attacker will see this as a partial victory. Because then attacker learns that their tactics of manipulation and constant criticism can yield results. The attacker has shown a tendency towards making immediate judgements about someone. This together with statements like: "Niether do I like it when people say one thing about how things don't work (when it suits them) and then the opposite when it does. " This demonstrates once again that the attacker feels an inflated sense of self-importance. Notice that it's all about what he or she doesn't like or can't stand. This implies that the attacker feels a sense of superiority over others and of course this leads to the attacker quickly trying to establish dominance. I would guess that the attacker is a regular poster on this forum or is used to posting on a number of computer forums. The attacker likes to receive praise for his/her knowledge of computer graphics technology. The attacker probably likes to correct newbies and "educate them" in the way that we have seen here. As I previously mentioned: I came to this forum because someone else posted a reference to it. The attackers next move will be to suggest that I probably paid that person to do so (the attacker will look for any possible route towards his goal of suppressing the output of someone he has chosen to be victim). If I want to sell fresnel lenses... I can do it just fine from my website or from eBay. If you conduct a search of other gaming forums you won't find any posts from me trying to sell lenses. Once again - I posed here because someone mentioned my website. I have a right to post on a free forum and I don't need the attacker's permission or approval. Since the attacker makes similar statements "no I'm not a control freak. Nor am I motivated by selling my products on a public forum...dedicated to 3d NOT 2d gaming. " - in each of his attacks. This would indicate the need to suppress and control someone at all costs. If you want someone to disappear that quickly then just try to convince everyone that they are dishonest and out to steal money! But let's just look at this particular statement in more detail: "no I'm not a control freak." - An immediate denial. But the statements made during the attacks would suggest otherwise: "Your arguements are particularlly not convincing especially as you are selling a product on these forums... " - Translation: Your words don't count because you sell vr products. The intention here is to convince others that I should not be listened to. The attacker wants to remain dominant at all costs. And if that means attacking a stranger and calling them a liar and a cheat then so be it! We see words to this effect in each of the attackers posts. And if that fails then he resorts to more desperate forms of control: "By the way this board is about Stereo 3d gaming NOT normal gaming - enhanced with a lens or not. " - Translation: I will try to convince others that you have no place being here by way of reminding them of the forum's purpose. These are all subtle methods of control. When I came to this forum I could see it was geared towards vr technology. I wasn't aware that it was specifically stereo 3d (I haven't looked at any other forum categories on this website). I have no reason to change my statements about SVGA being obsolete for gaming. I don't know any 2d gamers who use SVGA. Why should they when their GFX cards can run much higher and with smooth framerates? Once the attacker made it clear that he was talking specifically about stereoscopic 3d then I was able to agree with him (which he promptly saw as a sign of weakness and used to make another attack). SVGA is obsolete in 2d. In 3d it's a different matter because as Nvidia mention - Stereo gaming effectively increases the resolution (or words to that effect). Low-pixel count ("jaggies") is less noticeable in stereo 3d. SVGA is acceptable in stereo 3d. Once again I would remind other forum users that SVGA on a VR Helmet or when used with fresnel is not acceptable. Nor is it suitable for projected images (at least for the latest games). Do you know what's ironic? I came to this forum because someone else mentioned my website. I was then accused of coming here to sell. I made one reference to my website. Since then the attacker has been the one reminding everyone that I sell fresnel lenses. I might consider employing the attacker to publicise the business across other forums. :-) | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I'm generally an amiable person. I don't go looking to attack others or to make problems. I don't post on many forums (I post on one regular forum that's related to music) and very occassionaly on a forum related to extreme computer cooling. So I am definately not (as the attacker would have you believe) cruising the forums trying to get extra lens sales. I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with something I've said or of challenging me on something. But this is very different from the kind of determined attack we see here from the anon-attacker. This person shows a total lack of respect and disregard for others. What's very much evident in his form of attack is that there is no middle ground. If I agree with the attacker on any point then this is taken as a sign of weakness. Typically such people will continue their arguments and attacks for weeks or months before someone else finally intervenes and tries to cool things down. For me to invest large amounts of time and effort in establishing friendly dialog with such a person would be a waste of time. I am happy to discuss vr related issues with anyone who has an honest interest in sharing experiences or knowledge. I also sell thermoelectric cooling hardware. And by the attacker's rulebook this means I am not qualified to discuss such things on any forum. Why? Because I would obviously be doing so in order to sell my product. There is one key element that the attacker fails to understand. That the salesman might conceivably enter a forum as an enthusiast. Question: Why am I selling fresnel lenses? The attacker has no thought or understanding of this. Am I selling fresnels because I randomly applied for various jobs until I found employment as a fresnel seller? No. I'm selling fresnels because I was a gaming/vr enthusiast looking for a useable technology. HMD's don't deliver (if you are unsure about this then go and try a vr helmet for yourself). You will notice that the icetec website is geared towards extreme cooling. Why? Because I am also a cooling enthusiast. I have a water cooled computer and have also taken my various CPU's below zero celsius for overclocking. So I'm selling extreme cooling. Does that mean I can't talk in an honest way about extreme cooling hardware? (Could it be that I actually have a pretty good knowlegde of these things?). If you visit the website you will notice that the extreme cooling devices (peltiers) have been suspended from sale. Why? Because there have been problems to cool the large amounts of waste heat from a peltier (274 watts+80watts or more from the CPU). This kind of heat is difficult to remove even with a water cooling system (water is 20 x more effective at removing heat than air). Because of the problems to remove the heat - the peltiers aren't able to operate at max efficiency. Typically they are cooling to 10c (CPU idle) and 27c (when running a game). If the peltier is cooled sufficiently it will take the CPU temperature down below zero. Because of these problems I have suspended sale of the peltier. I could continue (as some other companies do) just to sell the peltiers anyway (based on their potential performance). I am not prepared to do this. I would rather suspend the sale of these devices until such time that the problems of heat removal are figured out. The attacker isn't able to grasp these hidden variables. In his world everything is black or white. Yes or no. On or off. I sell fresnels because I was the victim of a ripoff to sell ultra-expensive VR Helmets that were totally unsuitable for modern games (anything beyond Doom). I sell fresnels because I am a gaming enthusiast (current favorite is Painkiller (don't much like Far Cry although I like the graphics)). SVGA in 2d is obsolete. SVGA in VR HMD is obsolete. SVGA in Fresnel is unacceptable. SVGA in Stereo 3d is acceptable. Is that too difficult to grasp? I'm sure that most of you are able to understand my meaning. The attacker is blinded by his own ego and determination to establish dominance. Justifying my words/presence/existance to such an entity is therefore illogical. The attacker must understand that any attempt to control me or oppress me will not be tolerated. I'm sorry to hit the forum with such long posts and especially since I've only just arrived! :-) | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers Ho ho ho. I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out where your statements and or understanding is wrong. Especially considering that you are trying to sell a product to people based on erroneous information. Are you not the one claiming games are not suitable for 800*600? Even Id software disagrees with you! Perhaps by releasing Doom3 they are attacking you too. This is not an appropriate place to 'sell' or promoted their own merchandise as you are clearly doing. To my knowledge you are the only person doing this here or has been allowed to do so. Perhaps Christoph (who owns the site and board) has not been around recently. So if there is no profit motive then let the people here have your products at cost...unlikely at the least. No I have not called you liar. I have pointed out to you where you have been inaccurate. Here is another link. http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQ0 Id software have developed Doom3 to run at 640 by 400 and 800*600 especially to accomodate low end systems. Its simply not true to say modern games have abandoned these resolutions. Long posts or not that is the fact of the matter. As for insults and control. None have been given. A reasonable person who is secure of that facts would not act in this way. Either you are very young or embarrassed that someone has pointed out that you do not know everything. Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"No I have not called you liar. " - Again the denials after many clear instances where you have told everyone that I am here to sell lenses. There are repeated examples of this and it is something I won't tolerate. "Niether do I like it when people say one thing about how things don't work (when it suits them) and then the opposite when it does. " - Which implies that I change my story under pressure which thus implies that I am insincere. You have implied that I am a liar and a conman in each and every post. You make absolute judgements without any real understanding. "I'm not attacking you." - More denials which tells me that your level of self-delusion is very high. In each post you have accused me of being here to sell lenses. You have implied that I have no place being here because I sell lenses. To deny this simply demonstrates further your level of dysfunction and self-obsession. "Id software have developed Doom3 to run at 640 by 400 and 800*600 especially" - Of course they have! They want maximum sales and maximum sales are not guaranteed if you make the game run only on high-end systems! You seem to suggest that all games are best run in SVGA. You seem to suggest that it's not practical to run higher than SVGA. Nonsense. Absolute garbage. Most 2d users are running much higher than SVGA. Was I aware that this forum and your conversation was restricted solely to 2d? No. And when you made that clear then I readily agreed that 3d in SVGA is acceptable. My argument was that SVGA is obsolete for 2d gaming, HMD systems and for projection (and fresnel). I haven't changed my opinion to suit anyone (especially someone whose only purpose is to establish dominance). And now? Now you accuse me of false advertising? You really have no idea when to stop, do you? And still you openly lie before the entire forum with "No I have not called you liar." and "I'm not attacking you." "Especially considering that you are trying to sell a product to people based on erroneous information. " - So my information is wrong is it? Explain for the benefit of the forum why my information regarding fresnel lenses is wrong. Do you use a fresnel? Have you used an i-glasses PC3d? I have repeatedly explained that I am here as an enthusiast. If I was here to sell then I would have crapped-on endlessly about gamers visiting my site to purchase. I have simply made comments about the fresnel and offered my own experience regarding pixel resolution. SVGA might be fine for someone like you sitting in front of a small 19" monitor. It is less of a problem because you use 3d LCS. It is not acceptable for someone who uses a fresnel or a HMD. Is that false/inaccurate information? I think not. I suggest you keep arguing because more than anything else it shows you're hidden agenda to stop me from posting freely. Should I have respect for you? Absolutely f*cking not. If you accuse a stranger of coming to a forum just to sell and of giving false information then you deserve no respect. Don't even bother trying to suck-up to me with a few lighthearted words ("Ho ho ho. I'm not attacking you. "). In each and every post you have accused me of coming here just to sell. You have implied that I'm a liar and someone who changes his words under pressure. And you have the stupidiy to believe that is not an insult or an attack. You can crap-on for the rest of the year if you want. I won't be playing any games in SVGA with a fresnel. I will continue to criticise SVGA in HMD until such time as a workable system emerges. I will continue to use the fresnel for gaming and to recommend and sell it to others. I am not charging $1499 for an obsolete piece of junk. Have you criticised IO systems for their product? No? Could it be because you have no experience of their product? Of course. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"This is not an appropriate place to 'sell' or promoted their own merchandise as you are clearly doing. To my knowledge you are the only person doing this here or has been allowed to do so. Perhaps Christoph (who owns the site and board) has not been around recently. " - So now you're latest attempt to silence me involves calling for the moderator or site owner? You have tried every trick in the book in the space of just a few threads. I can be free to extol the virtues of the fresnel. I can do so as an enthusiast. I have done so as an enthusiast on this forum. If I wanted to push my product onto forum members then I would have crapped-on about the cost or offered them special discounts. The only one who is constantly drawing attention to the business is YOU! I must therefore conclude that you are your own worst enemy. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
PS. Just to save you the trouble of typing your next attack: "This is not an appropriate place to 'sell' or promoted their own merchandise as you are clearly doing" "Perhaps Christoph (who owns the site and board) has not been around recently." "Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d. " "Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." "Especially considering that you are trying to sell a product to people based on erroneous information." "Niether do I like it when people say one thing about how things don't work (when it suits them) and then the opposite when it does." "Anyone who plays a significant amount of games in stereo 3d will know that your comments are rubbish. " "I can't stand grandstanding or BS or salesmanship especially on a hobbiest bulletin board." "By the way this board is about Stereo 3d gaming NOT normal gaming - enhanced with a lens or not. " "Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Thus your overall message is that I should not be posting here because I sell fresnel lenses. Perhaps you can persuade the moderator to back you up? I could certainly understand if I had come here with the sole purpose of promoting my website. I have not done so. I like talking about VR and gaming. Since you have made an immediate judgement about me and my intentions.. Then can you understand that my response to you is therefore going to be a hostile one. No one needs a pompous jerk to come along and tell them they're a liar and just out to make money. If that's not an insult then I'm a f*cking GPU on fried bread! | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers I can only find your posts regarding your products. So what else have you done here? The only hostility is coming from you. I've simply pointed out where you have been wrong in your claims... Claims made whilst promoting your products incidently... A mature person would accept that, especially as it is backed up by factual information. I'd suggest if you don't like people pointing out where you are wrong then don't post on public boards. By the way if you had been here for any length of time or bothered looking at the rest of the site you would know Christoph is the only moderator. But of course you haven't else you would also know that this is a site about 3d and 3d visualisation. There is no message. But if you are going to sell your products then get your facts straight first. Thanks for your insults by the way, as if I care. Note - still no swearing and no insults in this post either! | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
You like making immediate judgements about people you've never met? You like to accuse them of posting under false pretences? Here is something for forum members to consider: The attacker seems to have a very real mission to prevent me posting here. I haven't pushed my product but on the contrary have spoken as an enthusiast about something I happen to be interested in. In each and every post from the attacker - I am accused of being here just to sell lenses. I am accused of giving false/inaccurate information. The attacker has made it very clear that he doesn't want me posting here. To such an extent that he now asks why the moderator hasn't stepped in to ban me! So what is his agenda? Could it be that this anyonymous attacker is working for a Helmet Mounted Display company and has a mission to maintain interest in a product limited to SVGA resolution? I guess then that such a person might be pretty desperate to stop someone from talking about the fresnel. Of a system that's not restricted to SVGA, yes? It's a possibility isn't it? Unlike the attacker - I am not going to make an absolute judgement about this. How could I? It would be pretty dumb to make such a judgement on someone I've never met. But I am smart enough to know that it is a possibility. Do I seek to silence the attacker or to get him banned from this forum? Absolutely not. I am not that kind of person. It therefore follows that I am not going to put up with that kind of treatment from an irrational, delusional who shows no regard for others. But you might ask yourself why it is this person is so determined to convince you that my sole purpose is to sell you lenses? And why he is so determined to defend SVGA at all costs? - even when it can easily be demonstrated as being unsuitable for vr products (with the exception of LCS 3d). If anyone would like to continue some friendly discussion about vr then I would be happy to do so. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"Note - still no swearing and no insults in this post either! " - Nope. No swearing. That must be yet another thing that makes you superior, yes? Unfortunately the fact that you like to accuse strangers of lying and of posting under false pretences kind of makes you a bigger jerk, no? Perhaps your parents taught you that to swear or throw insults is wrong. They obviously didn't teach you that accusing strangers of lying is a little bit nastier. Like I said - if you can continue this argument for weeks or months then you will do so. On every forum there is at least one passive-aggressive who likes to stir it up in order to maintain social status within a forum. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"I can only find your posts regarding your products. So what else have you done here? " - I have talked about the problems associated with that product your company sells - i-glasses pc3d. But you're right.. The only other thing I've talked about is the fresnel and of stereo 3d. I haven't talked politics, psychology, trains, plains or porn. That must mean your absolute judgements about me were correct? 3... | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"I can only find your posts regarding your products. So what else have you done here? " - What is the title of this thread? "If you like fresnel, check this..." - So i am condemned for discussing the fresnel in a thread about - ??? fresnel? Am I seeing things? Perhaps the title of this thread is: 'If you like stereo 3d, check this...' ?? Or perhaps it's: 'if you like arguing with pompous jerks all day long then check this...' ?? No. The title of this thread is: "If you like fresnel, check this..." Well as it do happen - I do like fresnel. I sell fresnel. I play games with a fresnel. I have also owned other vr products and I have mentioned those products. I have mentioned 3d lcs because I also like using 3d lcs. Oooh and I got really naughty when I recommended Elsa Revelators or e-Dimensional LCS further up the page! "Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Again, this is a board about 3d technology not 2d." Huh? I thought this thread was about the fresnel? I have talked about different types of vr including the fresnel and hmd as it happens and also lcs. So you have to wonder why it is the attacker is so determined to silence me? Wait a minute... I just have to check and re-check to be sure I'm not reading things incorrectly? I scroll to the top of the page... I see these words... "If you like fresnel, check this..." - I therefore assume that it is safe to discuss the fresnel in this thread? If not then I have to ask why someone else first raised the subject and why someone else posted a link to my website? Under the circumstances I have done a pretty good job of holding back on the sale's talk. I am here as an enthusiast and that is precisely the reason I become angry when someone accuses me of being a liar. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Ho ho ho Paranoid now as well. How can I stop you posting? Hey your 'attacker' - your words is omnipotent as well!! I am not selling anything. Just to be clear the information that is not correct is: "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost). Our lens works at any resolution (based on your monitor/GFX card). " Again the best example of how untrue this is comes from Id... http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQ0 I don't work for the hardware or computer industry. As if anyone who makes HMDs could be bothered reading this forum. Why do you go on about superior this and superior that? You brought up the fact that I insulted you, which is not actually in any of my posts. You do seem happy to swear and insult someone else though. Is this the way you treat anyone that disagrees with you or is posting on a public board limited to what you have to say? No status for me here I'm anonymous. I have nothing to gain. I certainly have no ties with any company that sells 3d or VR products. But you do, you sell fresnels. Not very well it would seem either. | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
I just a fresnel len from MaxAids; should be arriving in a few days. I still think HMD is much better (if you have the money) then fresnel. The ability to have 720 degrees of stereo surrounding you if the best VR experience. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
" have nothing to gain. I certainly have no ties with any company that sells 3d or VR products. " - And we should believe you because? What? Because you say so? So you have proof I sell fresnel lenses? It's never been an issue for concealment. But I have to wonder why it is you feel the need to hide under an anonymous label? It's yet another clear example of your irrational non-logic. You believe that it is simply enough to state that you are not connected with a hmd company. Where is your proof? I am on trial by you and am expected to defend myself. Do you really believe it's enough just to type a few pompous words to deny any connection with a hmd company? "I don't work for the hardware or computer industry. As if anyone who makes HMDs could be bothered reading this forum." - Another example of your absolute lack of understanding. Now you insult this forum and it's creator. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this forum residing in one of the most well-known vr websites in the world? I would expect that quite a few people connected to the HMD industry would post here. You yourself post here and you have a mission to defend SVGA for the sake of your beloved HMD company. So it is likely that others also post here with a special interest. "I certainly have no ties with any company that sells 3d or VR products. " - Is that sufficient in a court of law? I hardly think so. Ahhh but you'r about to say (in your predictable way) - you are not on trial here. Correct. So why am I on trial from a pompous arse who refuses to listen when I say I'm here as an enthusiast? For no other reason than you know I sell fresnels. And because of this then you feel safe to make every f*cking assumption under the moon! I'm now going to try using logic with you... If you refuse to comment then we can assume that you do have a hidden agenda and that you are working for a HMD company. Question: What is the likelyhood that I am here solely to sell fresnel lenses? In terms of chance percentage - is there a 50/50 chance or are the odds higher in your favour? | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"I still think HMD is much better (if you have the money) then fresnel. The ability to have 720 degrees of stereo surrounding you if the best VR experience." - You are in love with a concept rather than any real HMD system. You could probably buy a used i-glasses HMD as i did - if you wanted one badly enough. You are likely to be disappointed. Unless of course you don't mind awful image quality? I don't know what the MAXAID is like but it should be far better than an i-glasses HMD! | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"How can I stop you posting? Hey your 'attacker' " - By asking why the moderator hasn't banned me? You did raise that question didn't you? Or have you forgotten that as well? Thus far I have been accussed of the following charges: That I did enter this forum with the sole intention of selling fresnel lenses. Of providing false or misleading information. Of posting 2d related words on a forum dedicated to 3d. The prosecution has thrown many accussations but has absolutely no proof. Of the first charge against me I can say that I entered this forum because someone else posted a link to my website. On the 2nd charge I can challenge anyone to proof that SVGA is suitable for use with the fresnel or HMD or even 2d gaming. Of the 3rd charge against me - it is clear for members of the jury to see that this thread was created for the purpose of discussing the fresnel. Therefore the prosecution's claim that I have no business discussing 2d or fresnel here is utterly wrong. The prosecution offers nothing but assumptions and meaningless attacks. The prosecution has made some serious allegations but is unable to offer any proof. It is also very evident that the prosecution has no valid experience of VR hardware (with the exception of LCS 3d). I therefore move this case to be dropped. Onto the prosecution's fat head. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers this my last post. You come to forum. Your first post ever is about a product you sell. You promote it. Not only that you knock someone else's product. One of things you say is an out and out lie. Someone points it out to you nicely. You don't respond. You carry on promoting your product as an enthusiast. You get angry and annoyed when someone again points out to you that you have lied in promoting something you are selling. You swear and insult them. You start to call them an attacker. You start to invent some hidden agenda to explain why someone could possibly disagree with you. Now you think you are on trial. What is the likelyhood you are here to sell fresnel lens? Thats the only reason you're here. Else why is being wrong so much of an issue for you? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Opps The annonymous thing. Need to answer that. That means I have no prestige or kudos to win because no-one knows who I am or how much I have already conrtibuted to this board and others in the 3d community.... | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
We will now be filing a counter-claim for malicious accusations and slander. As well as the repeated accusations by the defendant that we were posting under false pretences. The defendant also sought to have us banned - because he claimed we had no genuine interest in vr other than to sell fresnel lenses. The defendant also claimed that we should not have been posting on the forum because it was intended solely for 3d users. This is absurd considering the thread in question was created specifically for people interested in the fresnel lens! We suspect that the defendant has strong reasons to have us 'silenced'. We believe the defendant may be working for a HMD company. We believe that their intention is to maintain interest in a product limited to 800x600 pixel resolution in the full knowledge that such a resolution is outdated for anything other than LCS 3d. The defendant's only response to this has been: "No status for me here I'm anonymous. I have nothing to gain. I certainly have no ties with any company that sells 3d or VR products." Furthermore the defendant claims that no one involved in the VR industry would bother to post on such a forum. We feel that this is also false and inaccurate. The forum in question is very popular and the website is known to vr users all over the world. It would certainly be in the interests of the defendant to silence any negative comments about SVGA resolution for gaming. Bad news can spread very quickly through a forum where a product is found to have problems or limitations. In much the same way that positive comments would also quickly circulate. The defendant therefore places little value or significance to the forum on which he posts. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Oh and Id's new game which runs superbly well at 640 by 400 and 800 by 600 doesn't count then as a "modern texture rich game that is unsuitable for todays displays" I do hope you carry on showing yourself up! Don't you think that if I had any ties to any company that sold HMDs I'd be pointing out how good they are? That they actually do, do Stereo... Ho ho ho You carry on believing your lie about and how unsuitable texture rich gaming is at 800*600 whilst I go off and play Doom3 next week in stereo3d probably at 800*600 on a 8ft by 6ft screen... Prat | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"Feathers this my last post. " - We both know that's not true. "You come to forum. Your first post ever is about a product you sell. You promote it. Not only that you knock someone else's product. One of things you say is an out and out lie. Someone points it out to you nicely. " Interesting take on things. Shall we have that again in a more truthful light? I came to this forum after a search on google revealed that someone had linked to my site. I promote the virtues of the fresnel based on my experience of the system and I then post a single link (as someone else had done) to the site. Since then I haven't promoted my particular product. I have spoken of the fresnel in general. "Your first post ever is about a product you sell. You promote it. " - Yes. Why would you be surprised about that? Duh! The thread is about the FRESNEL! Someone else posted a link to MY WEBSITE! So then you want me to arrive and talk about fish? Of course. And I have the balls to say nasty things about the product your company sells? Damned right! Why are you charging $1499 for something that simply doesn't give a clear enough image to play UT2001,2,3 or 4? Or Painkiller or Far cry or FS2004! You are unwilling to discuss the issue of severe internal reflections and you ignored emails I sent your company some time ago. I even offered to have the optics AR Coated for you. Your response? Ignore emails and pretend the problem doesn't exist. So now I am promoting a product that (unlike yours) doesn't cost $1499. It isn't limited to 800x600 and it still gives wide FOV and DOF! Of course you don't like it and of course you will ask why the moderator hasn't removed me! I also promoted the e-Dimensional glasses and the Elsa Revelators. Funny but you don't mention that! "Someone points it out to you nicely. " - You have never pointed anything out nicely to me. You came as an aggressor and the only time you dropped that aggression a little was when it was explained to you that I wasn't going to be intimidated by you. You see my anger as a sign of guilt? It is clear that your grasp on psychology is not very strong. My anger is a sign that I resent being called a liar. I am not the type to respond mildy forever when some jerk comes along with lies and accusations! You even conclude that you are somehow superior because you have refrained from swearing? So f*cking what! You're a bigger jerk because you accuse a total stranger of being a liar and a cheat. You then spend several posts denying that you said anything offensive. Your grasp of reality is bog-standard and based on very narrow pre-conceptions. This is clearly illustrated by your absolute belief that you cannot be wrong in your accusations! Once again... "Feathers this my last post. " - We both know that's not true. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"You carry on believing your lie about and how unsuitable texture rich gaming is at 800*600 whilst I go off and play Doom3 next week in stereo3d probably at 800*600 on a 8ft by 6ft screen... Prat " - At last you have posted with a signature. Thank you for showing that much respect. And I do believe you said you weren't going to say anything else. So yet again I have predicted your oh-so predictable behaviour. Does that make me better than you? No. But I recognise that making assumptions has can yield inaccurate results. Have fun with your super-sized blurry-pixelated Doom 3. "Feathers this my last post. " - We both know that's not true. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"Oh and Id's new game which runs superbly well at 640 by 400 and 800 by 600 doesn't count then as a "modern texture rich game that is unsuitable for todays displays" If anyone wants to play Doom 3 at 640x480 or 800x600 on a HMD, Fresnel or Projector then good luck! Perhaps if you are short-sighted then you won't notice how bad the image looks? If you're simply using LCS 3d and monitor then it's not so much of a problem. The fresnel enlarges the screen as well as extending the DOF and so you can't get away with having pixel shortage. But again - if you're using the fresnel with LCS 3d (as I do) then you might just get away with SVGA. For the HMD (such as the PC3d) you can forget it. "Feathers this my last post. " - We both know that's not true. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
"The annonymous thing. Need to answer that. That means I have no prestige or kudos to win because no-one knows who I am or how much I have already conrtibuted to this board and others in the 3d community.... " - I see. Thank you for explaining that. I was inclined to think that you liked to remain anonymous because you like to accuse others and make enemies! Instead you were demonstrating your honourable nature so others wouldn't feel too small in your presence. Part of your honour code is also to accuse others of lying? And then seeking to get them removed from a forum based on your absolute belief that you right? Cool dudey. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
If anyone else would like to accuse me of being here under false pretences: Search for icetec-uk under google. You will find a link to this forum. Near the top is a reference someone has made to my website. That is the only reason I'm posting here. As a response and as an enthusiast. I would then suggest you search other 3d or vr forums. You won't find any posts from me because I don't post on such forums. I regularly makes searches for references to my own website in order to see who said what and why. That was what led me here. Mr "Prat" apparently doesn't believe it possible that someone can be a fresnel enthusiast and sell lenses. To put it another way: Mr Prat doesn't believe that someone who sells fresnel lenses can post on a vr forum out of a genuine interest. I would suggest to any other would-be prats that anything is possible in this universe. We exist in a universe without any absolute truth. Nothing can be proven or disproven in absolute terms. There is only relative truth. Nothing more. Mr Prat doesn't understand this and so he feels safe to make absolute judgements. Once you understand this then you tend not to make so many assumptions about your world or about others. For all I know - Mr Prat could be part of a super-intelligent alien race hell-bent on preserving the sanctity of SVGA gaming for their own gain. There is no absolute proof for or against. It must therefore be regarded as equally possible as not. Simple logic. Time for coffee. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
Busted! The anon postee who likes to criticise me for talking about fresnel lenses is an icetec customer! The customer in question resides in the U.S. and recently made a claim that his lens arrived broken. He asked if we could send another one. I asked him to either return the broken lens or send pictures of it via email. At this point the customer went silent on us. It's not the first time we've had a customer trying to get a free lens from us. It must be said that 99% of our customers are honest and we've only had one complaint about a fresnel. That was from a customer who thought he was getting 3d glasses! He was given a refund of course. We have a policy of refunding the customer's money if the customer is unhappy with the product. We have only had one such complaint! The "prat" postee has been found to have posted a message elsewhere on this forum claiming to have suffered eye-strain as a result of using our lens. Our lenses are of such high optical purity that eye-strain isn't an issue. If anyone has doubts about this then either come and visit us for a demo or try our lens for yourself. You can have a refund if not satisfied! Nice try - anon prat. You can also checkout our feedback at eBay under icetec-uk username. We've received good feedback from customers. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
All our customers upon receiving a lens are asked to provide feedback about it. Some customers post feedback via eBay while others post on our icetec forum. The attacker posted the following message elsewhere in this thread: " By Anonymous on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 03:04 pm: i got serious eyestrain with fresnel lens i bought from www.icetec-uk.com. and many reflections from my monitor too. something i doing wrong? " Obviously this is very bad for the attacker because we have his email address and residential address. Legal action will be the next logical step to end his malicious campaign. Just to make things perfectly clear... I don't have a problem with someone for having different opinions to me. I do have a problem when a disgruntled customer conducts a campaign to damage our reputation! | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
PS. "The attacker posted the following message elsewhere in this thread: " - I meant to say in the following thread... http://www.stereo3d.com/discus/messages/24/2754.html?1089765314 :-) | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
"You are in love with a concept rather than any real HMD system. You could probably buy a used i-glasses HMD as i did - if you wanted one badly enough. You are likely to be disappointed. Unless of course you don't mind awful image quality? " Yes. I love the concept and the product. I had an opportunity to test one of those military grade HMDs that provided 120 degree FOV, and they are great. More immersive than the best fresnel len can offer I should say. Yes. I have i-glasses since two years ago. Eventhough it is not as good as I want it to be for games, I use it regulars to watch movies. I think the current consumer HMD's limitation is the narrow FOV. If manufacturers are willing to address that, even at 800x600 is good for first person shooters. | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
What was the resolution of the military HMD? There is no question that a HMD has greater potential than a fresnel. Helmet tracking and 360 degree imagery is what it's all about! But as far as I'm concerned - it's just not a reality at this time. Have you tried playing Unreal T on an i-glasses? Which version of the i-glasses do you own? | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
The military HMD has a 1280x1024 res. Good enough for the Army's Helo training. Sorry, I only play flight sims. Well the model of my i-glasses. It's been a long time. I think it is this one. http://vrealities.com/iglassespc3dhr.html | ||
| feathers632 Rating: N/A |
I bet that Mil HMD was expensive! I used to be into flight sims in a big way. I would hang out on Jane's combat net forum and dogfight USAF sim users. We used to have a lot of fun there! I didn't have any VR equipment back then. Just a Saitek HOTAS control system and a home-made rumble seat. | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
Indeed, indeed, that was a 60K dollar unit. Ever wonder where our tax dollars go. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
One problem with AA in stereo is that it only works for a limited number of games. In many games you won't get stereo seperation and in others there will be significant graphic anomalies. I opted to play my games at a refresh rate of 100Hz in 1024x768 as apposed to 120Hz in 800x600 for the fact that 800x600 without the AA looks pretty much like crap. Will a fresnel give you stereoscopic viewing, NO. will it greatly enhance your FOV and immersion while gaming in stereo, YES. Plain and simple. It is best to build a box between your lens and screen to eliminate ambient light from entering the lens. Ambient light will give you a faded overall picture with more washout at the edges of the screen. The Maxiaid lens was great for this as I attached the box to the lens and was able to remove it from the holder as one unit for surfing. John | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
My Maxiaid lens just arrived today. It makes my 13' TV look like 20'. BTW. Do any of you know if there is a fresnel that can make my 17' monitor look 30' at a reasonable cost. I paid $50 for my fresnel for the TV. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Thanks for some sensible comments about the fresnel and screen resolution, John. Nothing beats practical experience. You can theorise and discuss the possible problems of using a fresnel for an eternity. It is only when you try such a system for yourself that you see really does work. Is the image sharp and clear with your particular lens? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"BTW. Do any of you know if there is a fresnel that can make my 17' monitor look 30' at a reasonable cost. I paid $50 for my fresnel for the TV. " - Yup. The same fresnel I use. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Yes it is. There is some concaving of the sides but I adjusted the monitor to eliminate that. I wouldn't recommend it for reading but I think that holds true for any large fresnel. Also the lens has a slight blue tint to it that lends to brightening up the image. It counteracts the darkening of the LCD glasses. I've thought about mounting one to my "floating" desk just to see what it does for my 10' screen. That might be a bit overkill though... John | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
BOPrey, I have seen fresnel type glasses on e-bay have you ever tryed using somthing like that to increase your FOV with your I-glasses ? Seem's there should be a way to mod I-glasses for a better FOV..? | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
humm! Got to try that. Thnx | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
BOPrey, Do you know which model HMD you tried on? The only one I can think of with the specs you described is the SEOS hmd, which is I think partial overlap (though it also has a very high monocular field of view) It is big and is made of foam. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Entirely made of foam? Even the LCDs? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Heh, I wish! No just the shell is foam, the panel is the CRL LCOS sxga panel, the same one used by NVIS's nvisor, Saab's addvisor, and the Deocom HMD from Korea. Apparently the shell is very bulky but very light Alsom, the eyepieces have adjustable focus and are not eyeglasses compatible. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Honestly most people play games at 640x480 when playing a console game. It's not obsolete to play games like that, even on a PC you may not have the hardware to run modern games like Doom3 at such high resolutions. Plus higher resolution doesn't necesarily mean a game will look better, a number of modern games scale well with resolution but other games at higher resolutions the texture surfaces look blurry. But even in most modern games, if you get close to surfaces you start to see the bilinear filtering and other texture artifacts. I can see though that with larger FOV displays you have to start increasing the resolution, otherwise you start seeing the pixels in the nearest part of the display. Doom 3 has a horizontal FOV of 90, I would have to sit about 8.5 inches from my 21 inch display to get the correct experience. I usually sit under 2 feet away from my monitor when I play games, at 640x480 or 800x600 (depending on how well the game performs). I would have to increase my monitor size and resolution by 2.8 times. 640x480 would have to be 1792x1344, and 800x600 would be 2240x1680. The highest my monitor supports right now is 1600x1200, which if I go backwards on that is 571x428. So its a tradeoff, I'm losing resolution as I increase my FOV. I don't know, I am somebody who wants everything  . I want wide FOV, with high resolution, with stereoscopic 3d, with head tracking and comfort. The 2 main things I think HMDs need to provide to consumers, is head tracking and comfort. And of course head tracking implies providing a way for software developers to take advantage of head tracking. Otherwise they are just directly competing with having a nice big display on your desktop (and a fresnel lens), which can do high resolution and stereoscopic 3d, as well as having a higher fov. As a developer, I might not need those 2 things though. I might just want to have something that fits on my head with a reasonable FOV, and I work on my own motion tracking systems. And right now what I am wondering is if these lenses can be used to modify current HMDs to support higher FOVs. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
You might benefit from mini-fresnel lenses to improve the FOV of your HMD? "Doom 3 has a horizontal FOV of 90, I would have to sit about 8.5 inches from my 21 inch display to get the correct experience. I" - One of the reasons the fresnel gives such a strong sense of immersion is because you can sit so close to the screen and not lose focus. I set my fresnel at 4.5 inches from 17-inch monitor and a little further for a 19. If the lens is at 4.5 inches then your eyes might be only a couple of inches from the fresnel. In other words your eyes might be approx. 6 inches from the monitor. This increases your FOV but the extended depth of focus means you can focus without any problems. Of course the fresnel also enlarges the image as well. With the lens set at 4.5 inches or close to that then the sense of immersion is so strong it can cause dizzyness with a 3d game or simulation. In fact we recommend a special screensaver for demonstrating this motion sickness effect! Anyway... "The 2 main things I think HMDs need to provide to consumers, is head tracking and comfort" - I have to say I that I never found the i-glasses SVGA 3d uncomfortable to wear and head-tracking is available. But I wanted the HMD for playing the latest games and that HMD just isn't up to the job. Comfort and head-tracking are the least of it's worries. Even when those things are present then the device is still unsuitable for displaying the latest games with reasonable clarity. Perhaps someone should make a custom HMD using a larger TFT display rather than a 0,6" micro-unit? "Honestly most people play games at 640x480 when playing a console game." - I wouldn't know about console games. I do know that 800x600 with a fresnel or HMD is totally unsuitable for modern games. If anyone owns an i-glasses HMD and would like to compete with me on Unreal Tournament 2004 then I will gladly accept the challenge. You will be lucky if you can spot an enemy at 4 metres using even the most expensive i-glasses HMD at $1499. I found my game-playing skills were so badly effective with that system that I had to sell it. And as far as 640x480 being suitable for many games players? Not if they use fresnel systems or video projectors. The fresnel gives amazing clarity but you need a minimum of 1024. My Graphics card (which is a year old now) can run Doom 3 at 1024x768 in stereo 3d. This is preferrable when using a fresnel to SVGA with max.settings. I won't comment on what you find acceptable as far as console games go (not my area). But when it comes to fresnel immersive gaming then you really need to be running at 1024 or higher. :-) | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Hi all have read all this thread. I agree with annon just one above. The point he or she is trying to make seems to be that console games are targeted to less than 640*480 and in these include FPS such as Unreal T, GTA3, Manhunt, Quake... even Painkiller and Doom3. These are all games you must know and play feathers - afterall they are all PC and console titles (or soon to be). All these games are texture rich. The only difference is that on consoles they are limited to TV's screen resolution. But more people play these games on console platforms than on PCs and none suffer from gameplay issues due to screen resolutions. In fact developers target the console market - it is the largest market segment. Thats why there are very few PC only games anymore, which mean developers must target those resolutions both in terms of gameplay and image quality. No console players complain of having any of the problems you say about not seeing someone 4 meters away. Quite a few console guys hook their systems up to projectors with great effect and enjoyment. Just check out any of the AV forums seach on projector and console. As for immersion using a frensel I can't comment. It works well for you obviously, so it must work for others. Isn't a bit like looking at your screen through a magnifying glass though or have I missed something? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
It seems we're missing the point completely. As a console player using a TV - do you use a fresnel or i-glasses HMD? No? Then you have no argument and I also have no argument against your 640x480. I have stated clearly that when I recommend 1024x768 or higher - it is for Fresnel users. I also state that SVGA is unsuitable for HMD. Have you tried an i-glasses PC3d? Have you played UT2003 or 4 on such a helmet? I would challenge you to play on such a system when it lacks the clarity for today's games. So you can see that my statements are mainly concerned with fresnel use and HMD users? Playing games on a console with TV screen with no immersive hardware is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE! A game even at 640x480 on a TV won't look too bad because your average TV will soften the image to some extent. I don't really care what you use for flat, 2d gaming. I am concerned with immersive hardware. SVGA is totally unsuitable for fresnel. The only time you can perhaps use it is in conjunction with LCS 3d glasses. How many console players are using the i-glasses PC3d at $1499? "No console players complain of having any of the problems you say about not seeing someone 4 meters away. Quite a few console guys hook their systems up to projectors with great effect and enjoyment. " - Read my statements and understand that I am not talking about conventional gaming. I am NOT talking about someone sitting in front of a flat television or monitor. I AM talking about SVGA being unsuitable for VIRTUAL REALITY HELMETS. And this can be easily demonstrated in a contest (fresnel versus SVGA HMD). "No console players complain of having any of the problems you say about not seeing someone 4 meters away." - Of course they don't! Because it's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE! "As for immersion using a frensel I can't comment. It works well for you obviously, so it must work for others. Isn't a bit like looking at your screen through a magnifying glass though or have I missed something? " - You can't comment on the fresnel? But that is the entire basis of my discussion along with the HMD as well. Of course your console games look fine at 640x480 on a TV! When you start using an i-glasses PC3d then you will understand what I'm talking about. It's a totally separate issue. I am talking about immersive hardware rather than conventional display systems. "Isn't a bit like looking at your screen through a magnifying glass though or have I missed something? " - Yes you have missed something. Please visit my website and read the introduction to virtual reality. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"In fact developers target the console market - it is the largest market segment. Thats why there are very few PC only games anymore, which mean developers must target those resolutions both in terms of gameplay and image quality. " - Again - it's not even an issue. No disagreements there. 640x480 resolution for console games? Fine. My comments are specifically for HMD and fresnel. Go and buy a PC3d at $1499 and you will find that the imagery lack resolution and clarity. Please try to understand that a CRT produces a much better quality image than a .6 inch micro display. A Console game at 640x480 on a TV is perfectly acceptable. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE on a .6" micro display that also suffers from a whole host of other issues! SVGA is also not suitable for fresnel. 1024x768 is the recommended minimum. I'm not trashing your console system or 640x480 resolution. I am referring specifically to the above hardware technology. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
PS. You might like a link? http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/immersive_vr/vr_introduction.htm | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
" CRT produces a much better quality image than a .6 inch micro display. A Console game at 640x480 on a TV is perfectly acceptable. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE on a .6" micro display that also suffers from a whole host of other issues!" On low-end microdisplays this is true, but on high end microdisplays like the CRL LCOS, which is about .7 inch (or maybe .88, I might be confusing two of them) The picture is much better than a CRT, though also much more expensive. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Well I can't comment on CRL LCOS. What is the pixel resolution? Would you be playing the latest PC games (Doom 3 etc) on such a system? My comments are specifically about PC games and immersive hardware rather than HMD technology in general. So - when I say that PC3d HMD is unsuitable because of it's 800x600 limitation... I mean specifically in terms of it's ability to display the latest games in sufficient clarity such that it does not impede the player's skills. It would be interesting to see the image quality on the LCOS you mention - but unfortunately this is no help to people who might be inclined to pay $1499 for a HMD with the expectation of enhancing their gameplay with the latest games. If I has paid even $500 for such a system - then i would be very disappointed if the image quality was so poor that my games-playing was severely impeded. So, for your LCOS: "The picture is much better than a CRT, though also much more expensive. " - Can the gamer expect to play the latest games on the system and for reasonable cost? That is what my customers are interested in. It doesn't matter to them whether or not ultra-high-resolution HMD's exist somewhere out there... They want a system that gives them a feeling of immersion without degrading the image-quality or impeding their games-playing skills and for a reasonable price. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Thanks for your long reply Feathers. "I don't really care what you use for flat, 2d gaming. I am concerned with immersive hardware" I'm interested to know how does a frensel make a flat image on a flat 2d monitor, well.... 3d?. Why should it be any different than sitting up close to a 36inch or a 40 inch TV? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Why should it be any different than sitting up close to a 36inch or a 40 inch TV?" - If you sit in front of a 40-inch TV. You are focused on the surface of the screen. Although the large screen is good... It doesn't extend the depth of focus. With the combination of large screen and extended DOF then you have a much more life-like sensation. Your question is asked by every other non-fresnel user. The fresnel doesn't make the image 3d of course - but it does give you the feeling of being immersed in the game or simulation (a feeling of being there). The feeling is very intense. The feeling is so intense that violent motion within a game or simulation can make you dizzy. Do you get the same feeling with a regular monitor? That's really the only way to describe it. The fresnel does more than simply magnify the screen and if anyone doubts this to be true? - I would suggest they question why it is that the fresnel is used for some commercial and military display systems rather than an ordinary glass lens? BTW. The fresnel I sell is not suitable for TV/console use (the phospor dots are too large) - you could probably use a large TV fresnel to great effect though? (although perhaps the 648x480 resolution might then be an issue?). | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
""I don't really care what you use for flat, 2d gaming. I am concerned with immersive hardware" I'm interested to know how does a frensel make a flat image on a flat 2d monitor, well.... 3d?. " The fresnel brings wide field of view and immersion. LCS stereo 3d glasses bring 3d. The two systems work perfectly together. | ||
| Alexander Oest Rating: N/A |
Feathers, I've followed the discussion and the fresnel lens seems interesting. But there's one of the benefits you mention, of which I'm not sure about the exact meaning: When you talk about focal plane, do you mean the kind of focus that we adjust via the curvature of the eye... also the focus that is corrected by prescription glasses and the focus you adjust on your camera ? Or do you mean the degree of convergence of the two eyes when looking at a particular object? If the latter, the fresnel brings nothing new, as the convergence can be adjusted via the stereo separation in the driver settings. Please clarify. I have been in doubt since the early posts of the thread. Alex | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so suspicious of a technology that is tried and tested. The information regarding it's history and development is freely available on the internet. There are examples of it's use by the military alongside the HMD. I spend a great deal of my time these days arguing with people who question everything from the optical quality of the lens to it's effect on gaming. Look through this forum for posts from people who actually use the fresnel - in each case you will see a positive response (regardless of where they purchased the lens from). From my perspective it seems absolutely absurd to have to spend so much time explaining and defending a system that works so well and costs so little money. How many people have spent hundreds of $$ on a HMD without being at all suspicious of that technology? Without asking whether this could work or that could work? You trust the HMD because it has been publicised and glamourised by Hollywood. You trust a piece of hardware that is no more a practical reality at this time than matter transporters. That's my rant for today. And now to answer your questions: "and the focus you adjust on your camera ? " - My camera is fixed-focus digital. Unfortunately it now takes no more than 2 pictures at a time because I figured I would unplug the RAM card while it was switched-on. The focal plane? - I mean the fact that my eyes aren't focused on the surface of the monitor but at a point far behind when using the fresnel (i go into great detail on the website about this). "Or do you mean the degree of convergence of the two eyes when looking at a particular object? If the latter, the fresnel brings nothing new" - I actually state a few posts up what the fresnel brings. I will re-state it so there can be no misunderstanding: The fresnel brings an intense feeling of being immersed in the game world. There is really no better way of describing it. "If the latter, the fresnel brings nothing new, as the convergence can be adjusted via the stereo separation in the driver settings. " - Did I say that the fresnel gave a stereoscopic 3d image? No. I said in a previous post that it gives a sense of being-there. Of being immersed and with a greatly increased FOV (which expands out to your peripheral view). I also state a few posts above that for stereo 3d we use the LCS 3d glasses. And that the two systems work very well together. " the convergence can be adjusted via the stereo separation in the driver settings. " - Of course it can. I can appreciate that for anyone who hasn't tried a fresnel system - it is difficult to imagine the difference it makes. The fresnel just hasn't received the publicity that the under-developed HMD has. But the Fresnel is tried and tested and it really doesn't need to justify it's place as a valid VR Immersion tool. All of the information regarding it's history is freely available on the internet (try searching for colliminated display systems). "When you talk about focal plane, do you mean the kind of focus that we adjust via the curvature of the eye... " - Perhaps you should consult an optician about it? Alex: Are you curious enough about the fresnel to try one? Why don't you try one and if your doubts and fears and speculations prove to be true then ask for a refund? Either way you can post your findings on this forum, yes? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
You know what I think would be cool. A projector with a short throw lens and a smallish hemispherical lens mounted to your chair or the ceiling. Have motion tracking of your head via a TrackIR or some similar device that inputs to 2 stepper motors that control the X and Y axis of the projector/screen unit. There is a DLP/LCD ? projector that has software to display on several differently shaped screens. If you used two projectors in a passive stereo setup instead of just one running in stereo the effect would even be better. Damn I wish I had a pocket full of cash! John | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Change that to pitch and yaw. X and Y, what was I thinking.. John | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
That sounds like a tricky but potentially rewarding project. It almost reminds me of the HMD HUD used on some modern fighter aircraft. On a simpler level you could setup projectors to project onto a dome or cube for 360 and then a head-tracking system? One of my fresnel customers has asked about using the Track-IR3 with the immersive fresnel system. I can't see any reason why the two shouldn't work together although the TrackIR receiver would have to be positioned on the fresnel housing rather than the lens. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
PS. For all those non-fresnel users who find it difficult to believe the fresnel's effectiveness as an immersive VR device: "Magnifying Fresnel lenses for video game simulators" - from a manufacturer of display systems and fresnel lenses. Notice the multi-array fresnel display system on their front page? This has been adapted from military display systems based on fresnel. http://www.display-optics.com/products_entertainment.htm | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"although the TrackIR receiver would have to be positioned on the fresnel housing rather than the lens." - I meant to say - rather than the monitor. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Hi I sent an email to you guys before, don't know if you personally answered but.. Can't you have the Track IR behind you and use some sort of mirror setting in windows. Then the problem about sitting very near the lens + HT would be solved, right? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Hi, Didn't you get my reply? But anyway... The question is where would the mirror settings be set from? You can invert the up/down axis for mouse in all FPS games. But then you would have to reverse the left/right axis as well. It would be down to the Track-IR software to allow this and I don't know if it does. I don't think it would be a big problem to sit the track-ir on the front-edge of the fresnel housing. Although for max.immersion you would sit with your face inside the lens housing. Under these conditions you would have to modify the lens housing to let the IR light reflect within the housing. Your idea of placing the Track IR behind you is good - so long as the software would allow. I suspect it probably won't. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
The TrackIR follows the motion of a (few) reflective "dot"(s) placed on your glasses. If you placed the unit behind you all you would have to do is place the dots on the back of a headband and reverse the mouse emulators X axis by checking the little invert X axis box in the control panel. You may need to get an extender cable for the TrackIR ($10). John | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Do you use the TrackIR, John? If so what do you think of it? I have considered using it myself - since it would be the icing on the cake with a fresnel system. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
The only one I've used thus far belongs to a friend of mine. There always seems to be some other need for the extra $100 that it will cost. I hope to get one for christmas from my wife. She's often commented that the only things she buys for me now are computer related. But God bless her she still gets them for me. John | ||
| The Dude Rating: N/A |
why are you people arguing if you've never seen anything through a fresnel lense. go out to any office supplies store and buy a page size one for about $7 and hold it up to your computer. they are great for flight sims and anything where you want to give the illusion of distance. 1)it works. 2)they are cheaper then the alternative. those are the facts. everything else is commentary. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Good advice except for this part "store and buy a page size one for about $7 and hold it up to your computer." Cheap fresnel magnifiers will cause severe eye-strain and damage. So I'm afraid those facts you mentioned aren't in fact the facts at all, Mr Dude. There is an awful lot of difference between a cheap fresnel magnifier (flexible sheet) and a solid optical fresnel lens. Only an idiot would suggest otherwise. So if anyone wants a severe case of eye-strain then follow the dude's advice. | ||
| The Dude Rating: N/A |
haha, you have a real acerbic tone feathers, at least in writing. I meant as a general means to test the technology. Not to use for prolonged periods of time. I know that the quality of the more expensive ones are definately much higher. By the way i have a question feathers. I hear that the lower the focal length the better the quality. I was wondering which focal length would be better 220mm or 330mm. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I have to say I'm pretty shocked by the level of stupidity on this forum. Since my time here - I have been told by one particular dummy (who spent a week arguing with me) that I shouldn't be discussing Fresnels here because "it's a forum for stereo 3d". I politely explained to him that this thread is for Fresnel users. And since then I've heard the most ridiculous things said about the fresnel. Idiots arguing that the fresnel cannot possibly work because its extended focal plane would make everything look small. Now the latest advice is to buy a cheap magnifying fresnel? Whilst it would serve to demonstrate the immersive power of the fresnel: the thin flexible $7 sheets are of inferior quality. Why is it that some people think that all fresnels are the same? I have reached a point where it's easier to just let people continue to be dumb or perhaps even help them in their quest? So: For anyone interested in fresnel lens for immersive gaming? A fresnel will make your game graphics extremely small (the size of a single pixel). The fresnel consists of a single ring or facet - it's magnifying power is extremely limited. The fresnel lens isn't actually a lens at all. It's a piece of chicken. Most people who use the fresnel play their games at 320x200. This high resolution yields best results although it places greater demand on your video card. Especially with 0 x antialiasing. Finally... For anyone still considering buying a fresnel over an i-glasses PC3d? Don't. The i-glasses has a pixel resolution of 2000x1800. Although the box states 800x600. This is a typing error. You will find breathtaking imagery on any i-glasses HMD or camping store office supply fresnel. PS. If you pay more than $7 for a fresnel - it will make you go blind. We only recommend cheap, thin-sheet fresnels for best image-quality and immersiveness. Also please ensure your office supply fresnel is no bigger than 4 inches square. Thank you. icetec-uk | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"I meant as a general means to test the technology." - Don't test it. Fresnels have recently been found to cause premature aging in mice. I would prefer the shorter length fresnel. Results are better. The very first fresnel I tested for gaming had a longer focal length. Distortion was higher. | ||
| The Dude Rating: N/A |
haha did you just miss my last post. i said i bought it to test to see the fresnel effect. not to actually use for simming. "anonymous" was an idiot, but you just can't read. | ||
| The Dude Rating: N/A |
alright then. thanks. disregard my last post. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"i said i bought it to test to see the fresnel effect." - Like you say - even a cheap fresnel will demonstrate the immersiveness. The very first fresnel I used was the thin-sheet variety bought for $5. It was very small and not very clear. But the sense of immersion was quite amazing. I wasn't able to use the lens for more than a few days before eye-strain and headaches set in. The strange thing was that it became harder and harder to focus on that lens after using it for several days (I guess because of the eye-strain). ""anonymous" was an idiot" - I'm guessing "anonymous" still is an idiot. It can take some people years to reach the "tying my own shoelaces" stage. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Hello Yes I did get your mail, thanks. I was just trying to start a discussion, maybe someone else with some extra knowledge is here. Still awaiting my product :-( | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Feathers, you said I have to say I'm pretty shocked by the level of stupidity on this forum. Well thanks from all who read this forum. You've managed to insult everyone now, not just the ones that point out errors in your sales speak. Modern texture rich games are not designed for 800*600... is just one instance near the top. Tell that to the development guys behind GTA3 or Halo or (well the list is almost endless) as the target market for all modern games is consols with their low resolution with PCs coming second. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Well thanks from all who read this forum." - Don't speak for the entire forum. My comments were for those who have no experience of the fresnel and who argue endlessly about it's performance or functionality. "Modern texture rich games are not designed for 800*600... is just one instance near the top. " - Out of context. I explain again and again that the comment is in relation to fresnel and HMD use. You obviously are too dumb to understand that. "You've managed to insult everyone now" - No. I have managed to insult people with no experience of the fresnel who want to argue endlessly about it. If someone has a genuine interest in learning more about the fresnel then I don't have a problem explaining it's operation. I get extremely annoyed however when some people who have no experience of the technology then want to argue and disagree with everything I say. If you fall into the latter category then feel free to feel offended by my comments. "Modern texture rich games are not designed for 800*600... is just one instance near the top" - Are you able to understand the context yet? SVGA is unsuitable for Fresnel and HMD. If some console user then thinks I'm referring to non-fresnel/HMD then of course I'm likely to be irritated. When a group of people aren't able to understand simple statements then it quickly becomes very frustrating. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I was called arrogant by one particular postee because I came to this forum professing to know more than others. Tough shit. I know more about fresnels than a non-fresnel user. I build fresnel systems. I use fresnel systems. I had someone argue that an extended depth-of-focus would not work with flightsims because it would make everything look small. Utter garbage! I would suggest it's arrogant for a non-fresnel user to spend their time arguing with someone who knows about fresnels. Even more arrogant to argue that the fresnel wouldn't work with flightsims because of the near-infinite focal plane. Arrogant because that person is effectively arguing with all of those professional developers of immersive fresnel systems (from the military to commercial entertainment sector). That is what I call arrogant and certainly very stupid. As much as you may be shocked by my response to some non-fresnel users on this forum - I am just as shocked by your inability to read and understand simple statements. "Modern texture rich games are not designed for 800*600... " - How many times have I had to explain that this refers to Fresnel and HMD users? How many times has another dumb sap then interpreted that to mean all game/display systems? What is the title of this thread? It is a thread for fresnel users, yes? SVGA is unsuitable for fresnel and HMD. If after the 100th time you are still not able to make the connection then what can I do? I am not insulting people who have a genuine curiosity/interest in the fresnel. But I am certainly insulting the people who spend their time arguing about it's operation and effectiveness! When I came to this forum - I was accused of coming here to sell. I was told by the same person that I had no place discussing fresnels here ("it's a forum for stereo 3d"). I came to this forum because my company was mentioned in a thread created for fresnel users. I had to spend a week arguing with someone who used every trick in the book to stop me posting. That same user then posted another message in this forum to say he'd bought a lens from me and it gave him eye-strain. Since then I have had countless arguments with people who want to challenge everything about the fresnel. As if the technology doesn't have a history and hasn't been used in professional simulation display systems. So if you feel offended by my increasing lack of patience... At least you will know why I am no longer prepared to be "Mr Nice and polite" in the face of some very idiotic people. The Fresnel is already long-established technology. If you don't understand that then understand that is your ignorance. The technology doesn't need to justify it's existance to you. If you're one of those without fresnel experience who wants to argue about it... Scan through the fresnel related posts from users who actually had the intelligence and reasoning to try the system. They generally say it works very well. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"not just the ones that point out errors in your sales speak." - This is too dumb even to comment on. Other than to say it's obviously dumb. You can see for yourself the quality of the arguments against the fresnel here. In each and every case - arguments come from non-fresnel users with no fresnel experience. They spend their time theorising and speculating. What they don't do is actually try the system. And those are the people you reckon are pointing out flaws in my "sales-speak" ? Have the balls to post with something other than an anonymous tag. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
You claim things that are simply not factual, then you fail to admit it and then you insult the people who point things out to you or who disagree with you. I think its clear the type of person you are. As for having the 'balls to post something other than sn anonymous tag'....what on earth does that mean. You are a troubled individual and I suggest you seek out some anger management help. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
"You claim things that are simply not factual" - examples please: | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"I think its clear the type of person you are. " - I hope so. Developing a product and running a business takes considerable time and effort. Although in one sense - its not so bad for me because I have an interest in Immersive VR. Running a business is nevertheless still time-consuming and stressful. To have some idiot trash a product without ever having tried it makes me very angry. If you don't know much about fresnels then feel free to ask... But to then argue and challenge a system that is already established and known to work well is extremely stupid. "You are a troubled individual and I suggest you seek out some anger management help. " - Yes. Troubled by idiots who try to suggest I don't know anything about a product I developed and sell. To have some arse trash a product that would actually do wonders to enhance his gaming is therefore a little frustrating. If you're so unconvinced by the fresnel then go and buy a VR Helmet and get the hell out of this fresnel thread. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Feathers, why bother! | ||
| Jake Rating: N/A |
Hey! What's the title of this thread? "If you like fresnel, check this..." Seems to me that a lot of people are just here to stir up trouble and disagree with something they have no experience of! The fresnel does have a long history in immersive entertainment/simulation so why are some of you questioning every little detail? "Feathers": I do sympathise with you to a large extent. Looking back through this thread there have been some very silly ideas and arguments made against the fresnel. It's funny that in each case the arguments come from a non-fresnel user! I can see you're getting angrier and angrier with these people. They actually don't have a good case for posting in this particular thread. it's very clear that they don't know much about the fresnel and they don't much like it either! Many people just get off on disagreeing and starting arguments. Don't waste your time on them. Like you say, the fresnel is already well-established and doesn't need to justify itself to some forum troublemakers! Cool it, dude! | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
"If you're so unconvinced by the fresnel then go and buy a VR Helmet and get the hell out of this fresnel thread. " Right on! | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I use a fresnel. Have done for ages. Works great (very immersive!). Sucks at 800x600. With fresnel you need at least XGA (1024). I-glasses HMD? Tried it. Sucks bigtime. SVGA not good for HMD or fresnel. So what's the problem? I also agree that there are people here who are looking to start fights for no real reason. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Just to be clear the information that is not correct is: "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." So lets forget the console market then and the fact that every games producer targets a resolution lower than that for its texture rich games, namely that of native TV sets. I've read the thread. No one says or claims that a Frensel is a 'bad' product. The only product that is rubbished here is HMDs, and thats by feathers himself and his comments are generally the well known issues these systems have. This seems all seems very very sad. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"and thats by feathers himself and his comments are generally the well known issues these systems have. " - So what does that tell you? Would you like me to list problems the HMD doesn't have? The things I have said about the i-glasses HMD are based on personal experience rather than 2nd hand information. "Just to be clear the information that is not correct is: "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." " - what is your problem? Is this not a thread for fresnel users? For people who like the fresnel? Do you like the fresnel? When I explain for the 150th time that: "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." then this relates specifically to fresnel and HMD users. I have stated clearly that SVGA is fine for non-fresnel and non-hmd users. So what's your problem? Eh? What part of a sentence repeated numerous times are you unable to grasp? Are you not capable of understanding that this thread is for fresnel users? ""800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)."" - are you going to tell me this statement is incorrect when applied to fresnel or HMD? Eh? Are you? "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." If you're so dumb that you can't understand that sentence applies to fresnel/hmd users (this thread is for fresnel remember) then you shouldn't be posting on any forum. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"This seems all seems very very sad. " - do you mean sad in SVGA or XGA? Is this or is it not a thread for people who like the fresnel lens? "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. " - So why are you not able to understand that is specifically about fresnel/hmd? If it was a general comment about SVGA gaming in general then it generally wouldn't be posted in this thread, right? Are we on the same wavelength now? Probably not. Some of you people are hard work. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Perhaps you believe this thread is about chicken pie or something? I just don't get why it's not possible for you to understand "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." relates specifically to Fresnel and HMD. It's not rocket-science or alien language. I made that statement in this thread.. Created for fresnel users. Perhaps there is at least one person on this forum who can understand that? Make the connection. It will change your life... | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
I will now attempt to explain the now infamous comment for the 187th time. This will be your final explanation. If you are too stupid to understand it then that is your problem. "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games. The latest games are texture-rich and totally unsuitable for 800x600 displays (too much information is lost)." - I said this. Clever huh? This simple statement has caused more anger and resentment amongst non-fresnel users than any bogus politician ever could. Why? Because they cannot understand that (this being a fresnel thread and all) relates to fresnel and HMD. So you're a console user, hey? Playing games at 320 x 200 or 640x480? Fine. This thread relates to "fresnel". "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games" - thread title: "If you like fresnel, check this... " See what happens if you associate the two lines? It basically means that "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games" can be assumed to mean for fresnel gamers. As a console user you might be playing games on a TV, yes? Well most TV's will soften the image and make it look less pixelated. Even at 640. So that 640x480 doesn't look too bad. Same goes for SVGA. On the PC things are different... Monitors with small dot-pitch. Low resolution becomes noticeable in terms of pixelisation. That's why we have AA. But SVGA on a CRT is ok - especially in stereo 3d. "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games" - yes. For fresnel users it becomes a problem. No longer sufficient. Kaput. Why? Because the fresnel magnifies the screen. What happens when you magnify the screen? Pixels are more noticeable. Especially at SVGA in 2d through a fresnel. In stereo 3d LCS+ fresnel then it's not so bad. XGA is recommended for fresnel use. If you can go higher then great! But SVGA sux for fresnel use. "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games" - do you have a problem with that? Still unable to grasp the context of the statement (given that this thread is for fresnel users)? Eh? And my comments about SVGA HMD? Well, according the a recent post from the anon-dude... My statements about HMD are based on common knowledge (is it a contest to invent original problems?). SVGA is crap on a HMD. An i-glasses HMD doesn't have the clarity of a CRT. I don't give a f*ck whether HMD's exist that are clearer than a CRT? They are not generally available for the masses and useable with the latest games. So... Try to understand that you have to make neural connections and grasp context and remember previous statements and some how fit them all together to form a coherent understanding. Is there anyone who now understands that I'm not trashing just all and any SVGA games player? Perhaps at least one person understands that since this is a fresnel thread - my statement "800x600 is obsolete for the latest games" was directed at fresnel users? And also for users of other types of VR such as the i-glasses HMD. I think I have explained it clearly enough even for the tellytubbies to understand. "No one says or claims that a Frensel is a 'bad' product. " - Short memory too? The fresnel has been under constant attack in this forum. From my own fresnel to the operating principles of the fresnel in general. | ||
| Peter Wimmer Rating: N/A |
Feathers: I don't use fresnel lenses, so I don't want to make any comments on who is right in the previous discussion. However, the way you discuss on this forum insults other people and is therefore inappropriate. If someone deliberatly provokes you, just ignore these postings. From a professional businessmen, I expect more polite, less emotionally charged answers and more patience with newbie questions. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"more patience with newbie questions" - I don't have a problem with newbie questions. Overall my experience of this forum has not been good. I didn't create this thread and it was someone else who first mentioned my website here (not a problem in this instance) but within a short time I was accused of coming here to sell and then told that I shouldn't be discussing the fresnel at all ("this is a place for stereo 3d"). I have sold many fresnel lenses/systems to people around the world. Some of those people have been newbies. I take the time to answer any questions they have and provide after-sales support. But the situation we see on this forum is very different. There are a few people who are determined to argue and disagree no matter what the discussion is about. I had one of those people place a false statement elsewhere in this forum relating to my product. Someone later defended his statement with "slander doesn't affect a product". My overall experience of this forum has therefore not been good. Unfortunately when a forum allows unregistered users to post then it also encourages trouble-makers. I have recently seen one such forum closed down because of such people (http://www.psynews.org) It's easy to do or say anything when you can hide behind an anonymous IP. "If someone deliberatly provokes you, just ignore these postings" - So no matter what they do or say then I should just ignore them, is that it? That's not how I go through life. I don't have a problem with newbies or people who have a genuine interest. If the forum moderator allows false or negative comments about a product - then the moderator must also allow a company to defend it's product. "If someone deliberatly provokes you, just ignore these postings" - This implies that someone who deliberately provokes should be allowed to do so without any fear of reprisal. That is not a fair system at all. "the way you discuss on this forum insults other people and is therefore inappropriate." - This i can accept. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Perhaps you believe this thread is about chicken pie or something? " - I can understand that some forum postees may have found this line offensive. For that I apologise. "From a professional businessmen, I expect more polite, less emotionally charged answers and more patience with newbie questions. " - I also make a point of explaining elsewhere in this thread that I did not come here simply to sell fresnel lenses. I came here as an enthusiast. As an enthusiast then I have a passion for immersive VR. | ||
| Peter Wimmer Rating: N/A |
Personally, I believe it's ok to promote products in this forum (others do it too, including me) and of course you should defend yourself, but a short reply would be more effective. You must always keep in mind that many people don't read all postings of a thread. When somebody reads only the last few postings, will this encourage him to buy at your company? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Unfortunately I was trained at an academy for long replies. Short replies are almost impossible for me - but I can see your point. The aggressive attitude is usually short-lived (at least on other forums I visit). Words are exchanged and we usually find some common ground. I think this thread needs an injection of humour. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
A skeleton walks into a bar and says "Hey bartender give me a shot and a mop". Ta du dum. John | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
That's better. Already the tension has broken. | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
Some thoughts about most important thing of fresnel lens. One annoying thing about companies which sells fresnels that most of them hiding most important part of fresnel quality - gpi (grooves per inch). I think most of fresnels have 50gpi (worse than monitor - 72dpi). It is why image quality is bad and image is blurred with these fresnels on hi-resolution PC monitors. I've send question about gpi to "CT ReadScope" (manufacturer of these fresnels): http://www.ctscope.com/product4.htm. But I still have no answer. Of course fresnel CTT-37A2 (36") is somehow cheap (about 90$). I have found fresnel with higher resolution on: http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2040&search=1 Model NT46-572 (expand to -> 39") with 226gpi resolution. For example: If you have 22" monitor with 1600x1200px resolution then one display pixel was covered (transformed) by: 226gpi*41"/1600px = 6 grooves (Looks like good fresnel but price: $300) If it was low quality fresnel (50gpi) then 50gpi*41"/1600 = 1.3 grooves. It means that 3 monitor pixels were covered by 4 grooves of fresnel - reason why image is blurred. Of course these fresnels are good/optimal for low resolution TVs. P.S.: Rule of trade: If manufacturer don’t want to supply you with technical specifications of product then it means that product is shit. P.S.2.: If you will find fresnels with high resolution then post link here, please. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Hmmmm... Can you explain to me why my fresnels transmit clear images? Not one of my customers has complained of blurry images. Are you another example of someone who is full of theory with no practical experience? What is the facet spacing of the lens you use? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
The lenses I sell give excellent image-quality. Certainly not blurred. Once again I suspect we are seeing another example of all talk and no action. Are you a fresnel user? If you were then you would be telling everyone where you bought your fresnel, yes? Instead you come here with more theory and warnings and then ask people to post links to high groove density lenses. I've had a few customers like you. Once spent several days asking me questions and giving me his interpretations about the fresnel (and how he couldn't see how it would work). So now the latest garbage is to tell people that all 50gpi fresnels give blurry image, yes? I suggest when you actually start using a fresnel (assuming someone here provides you with a link to very cheap high GDL?) then you will be more qualified to judge. And since you list the Edmund scientific lens with it's very high GD then why haven't you bought one? Of course... You're looking for a source of 226GPI lenses for $7 each, right? Or perhaps you're willing to pay as much as $40? I've sold close to 30 of my len systems to customers around the world in the space of two months. Not one has complained of blurry images. I use the same fresnel myself and I know the f*cking images aren't blurry! What pisses me off is that newbies listen to your shit and believe that you actually know what the f*ck you're talking about. That for me is the worst part. Simple logic for anyone new to fresnels: If a fresnel seller is willing to guarantee great performance from his lens with a refund policy then you don't have much to lose, right? I suggest you ask yourselves why it is that EJocys doesn't have a fresnel? Edmund optics have the high GDL he mentions for $300. Is that a lot of money to pay for a quality product? I suspect that Ejocys is the kind of person who sends out numerous emails to fresnel manufacturers and stockists asking for specifications and spouting his ideas. As convincing as it might sound to trash all fresnels at 50gpi - the lenses I sell produce clear images for gaming. I use the fresnel at SVGA resolution or higher. Not one of my customers has asked for a refund because the image was blurry. My website has a voting poll so customers can make their comments about the lens. While saps like EJocys are asking you to post links to very high GD lenses for a few bucks... My customers are reporting great results from my fresnels. http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=5d574b01bc5d03ff91505aa8995f6caf Please note that there are more feedback responses at eBay under the icetec-uk username. The forum was created so that people would have a chance to read honest opinions about the fresnel. I'm sure some of the users on the forum will be happy to answer any questions the newbie might have! It seems this forum can't go more than a few days before some arse posts more theoretical garbage. Yet again it's from someone who doesn't actually have his fresnel yet. What a surprise, huh? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Logic: Someone who doesn't own a fresnel lens is trying to convince you that all lenses at 50gpi are garbage. There are many fresnels at 50gpi (even at edmund scientific) and costing several hundred dollars. Are they also garbage? I sell fresnel systems based on 50gpi lens. I have a forum setup so that customers can post their feedback (so that you can read their comments). I have a voting poll so that users can vote their findings. There is not one instance of a customer complaining of blurry image. The comments speak for themselves. And if that isn't enough then there is also my eBay feedback history. More than 160 transactions and not one negative or neutral comment. Customers have bought lenses both from the www.icetec-uk.com site and also via my eBay account. The figures speak for themselves. If that's not enough to convince you then I'm afraid nothing will. Listening to some sourpuss who trashes all 50gpi lenses and who then asks you for links for cheap high GPI fresnels simply means that the newbie loses out. And that really pisses me off. If Ejocys came to this forum and told you about his amazing lens and then gave you a link to purchase it then i'd have more respect for him. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"P.S.: Rule of trade: If manufacturer don’t want to supply you with technical specifications of product then it means that product is shit. " - is that right? Or perhaps they don't like answering questions from a pompous little prick? If you had come to me and asked the GPI of my lens - I would have told you straight-up! 50 GPI! If you then tell me my lens is shit then I will tell you to f*ck off! I have enough passion for immersive VR gaming not to sell blurry image shit to customers! | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
PPS. The anger management course was well worth the money! | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
http://www.icetec-uk.com/icetec/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6 | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
To "feathers" Thank you for telling to me who I am, what I want. I've posted numbers and calculations you moron. Can you understand? Or you are like Bush junior who sees "enemy" on every World corner. 50gpi fresnels have 4 grooves for 3 screen pixels. And 226gpi fresnels have 17 grooves for 3 screen pixels. Even stupid person must see difference (or maybe you need to check you eyes . I don't care too much about your "happy" customers or "praise" or fresnels of yours, because most of them don't know what gpi is. VHS quality is good if you haven't seen DVD quality. Car "Mini" is good if it is you first car. I just want to say that 50gpi is good for TV. For customers it is good to have choice (looks like you can't or don't want to understand). Re to: "P.S.: Rule of trade: If manufacturer don’t want to supply you with technical specifications of product then it means that product is shit. " - is that right? Or perhaps they don't like answering questions from a pompous little prick? Honest companies at least have product specifications on the web so customer doesn't need to ask and can compare freely. If you will decide to buy new car and seller does not want to answer to your questions and just repeats that product is awesome/excellent and everyone is happy and that you are cheap close minded bastard and you will decide go to other seller who offers full detail about his product, when who is the prick? P.S. You are a seller and in the real life most of sellers intend to lie about own products or to hide imperfections (like 50gpi against 226gpi). "good/exelent/awesome" is not a specifications it is advertisement. Numbers are. Drill it in to your head. You need to accept that or you will end in the courses of anger management. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"I don't care too much about your "happy" customers or "praise" or fresnels of yours," - I was expecting this line. So in other words you are now implying that my customers are either too stupid to notice a blurry image or they're lying? You are an arrogant little prick who doesn't have a fresnel of his own. You come to this forum with the intention of scaring newbies away from fresnel lenses that have been proven to give excellent results. Your sole intention is simply to create more misery and stir shit. Do you have a f*cking fresnel lens? No. You come here and make a statement that all 50gpi fresnels are shit. You then ask forum postees to find a source of cheap 226gpi lenses for you because you're too much of a tight-arse to pay $300 f*cking $$ Have you tried my lens? No you have not. Are you calling my customers stupid? You imply it. Are you suggesting my customers can't tell a sharp image from a blurry one? The fresnels I sell give an image quality many times higher than that of a $1499 i-glasses HMD. That is fact. It doesn't matter how many pompous f*ckers like you post negative shit about fresnels - The system I sell outperforms a $1499 i-glasses HMD. That can be proven to anyone (if anyone wants to arrange a head-to-head then let me know). So you can get 226gpi fresnels from Edmund for $300, yes? So go and buy one then and don't ask people here to find a cheap source for you. 226gpi is expensive anywhere and you will quickly learn that for yourself. That's the reason you still don't have your 226gpi fresnel. I sell a ready-assembled system that outperforms the i-glasses at $1499. And you have the f*cking nerve to tell me my product is blurry! "Thank you for telling to me who I am, what I want." - And thank you for telling my customers that they're opinion is worthless you f*cking moron. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Oooh 50gpi is shit... you need to buy 226gpi. I don't care what your customers say. I'm someone who's read lots of internet texts about fresnel and thinks 50gpi fresnels give blurry images. BTW Can anyone post a link for cheap 226gpi fresnels? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
To "EJocys" Although you may be dumb enough to disregard the thoughts and opinions of my fresnel customers just because you've picked up 2nd-hand theory and speculation? The feedback forum is created to counter the effects of negative people who really lack any real experience of the fresnel. You are just another example of what can go wrong when you don't have that practical experience. I have spent many months developing this system. It's about to move into it's next phase of development. The system outperforms a $1499 HMD and gives excellent results. That's not sales-talk. It's verifiable. The system doesn't cost $300 and so customers are able to test it for themselves. If they are unhappy then they can post feedback here and ask for a refund. I haven't had to issue a single refund due to blurry image. Now the question I would have to ask is: Why the f*ck would anyone want to listen to someone who trashes all 50gpi fresnels? When that person doesn't have a fresnel immersive system. When the person is dumb enough to think he can get a 226gpi fresnel for much less than $300. When that person is so up his arse that he places no value on the comments of a number of customers who have good things to say about the system. What makes you so f*cking special that we should disregard the feedback of actual fresnel users in favour of someone who doesn't actually quite have his fresnel yet? Are you getting my point yet? It doesn't make sense, does it? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Here's a link for that cheap 226gpi fresnel you wanted... http://www.cheesepie.com/ And some comments from people (my customers) who actually own fresnel lenses! "tonyuk100 Joined: 10 Jun 2004 Posts: 2 Posted: 10 Jun 2004 09:20 pm Post subject: Just tried my new fresnel lens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just bought the Fresnel lens from ebay, I wasn't sure what to expect so I kept an open mind. Anyway after trying various games and demos here goes, my honest opinion:- At first ( 10-15 mins ) it actually gave me really bad motion sickness, like being on the north sea in the middle of December kind of thing, but once my eyes and mind had got used to it WOW. Farcry, Medal of honor, Vietcon, No Limits demo, these are a few of the titles I have tried it with so far, the result was fantastic. The only game it didn't really have a good effect with was Pro Evolution 3, But I can live with that. As for films, anyone reading this that has already baught one try watching Spy Kids 3D on your PC using the Lens and a pair of cardboard 3D glases's that comes with the film. You simply have to be impressed with the final staggering effect, its amazing. Anyway to finish and give my verdict. Well worth the 20 quid and very very addictive, by that I mean, when you use it you will want to replay all the games you finished ages ago simply because the lens gives a whole new depth of gameplay to add to your enjoyment. Gotta try and get hold of a pair of shutter glasses's now to see the effect with a pair of these on, so if anybody knows where I can get a pair drop me a line. Bye for now. P.S if you aint already got 1, order 1 today, amazing. " "Mikuya Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 10 Posted: 20 Aug 2004 06:58 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whoa, thanks for the diagram! Not sure if I'll be able to do that myself, but I do know some people that do, so I'll have them take a look at it. One thing I am trying to do, though, is make the Interactor wireless using those wireless audio/video transmitters. It would be great to not have my body movement wired down. BTW: I got my fresnel today and it is more than what I expected it to be! I haven't gotten around to playing with it yet, since I dont have a housing to hold it. I'm planning to build it today out of some foam panels at my local crafts store. All in all, great product and well worth the money! " Email: "Will do! and yes...very impressive! I have a 21" top of the line graphics monitor and I was a bit worried about teh 12" lens, but to my pleasant surprise it worked out beautifully! Will post comments and vote on your forum! thx. markf" "Message From eBay Member Dear icetec-uk, Icetec, I left you a nice positive. Got the lens and it is truely amazing. I would love it if you would respond in kind with a positive! markf Thank you, mbfedas2 " Email:"Hi Raf, I'm thinking of getting 2 more lens, do you think we can make a deal? :=)" Email:"Hi, I"ve recieved the lens today and is awesome!!..and I'm thinking of get one more. :D Thanks for the great product! Dat" eBay sales: " Extremely happy with this transaction. highly recommend this seller A+++++++++ " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=174&item=4134930392 " fantastic quality frescal lens thankyou " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22610&item=5704918582 "Fantastic Product, Fantastic International Service! A+++++++++++++++ " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=174&item=4134534409 "looks great, not a scratch on it...thanks A+++ " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=174&item=4132709916 "FAST SHIPMENT- WELL PACKED- GOOD COMMUNICATION - AWESOME PRODUCT!!! AAA+++++++++ " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22610&item=5700608879 " super fast shipper, Great product...Thanks!!! " http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=174&item=4133570718 Shall I continue? Now according to Ejocys: All of the above people are either too blind to know a blurry image from a clear one or ignorant: " don't care too much about your "happy" customers or "praise" or fresnels of yours, because most of them don't know what gpi is." What's interesting is that all of the above people are fresnel users. Ejocys doesn't actually quite have a fresnel yet. He doesn't actually quite have a fresnel and yet he is able to tell all of the above people that they are wrong. The simple, logical, rational reality is this: It matters not whether you can buy 226gpi (or higher) fresnel lenses. Doesn't matter one bit. The system I sell gives breathtaking immersive gaming at a cost far below an i-glasses HMD at $1499. Sure you can buy higher res fresnels. At a cost! And the arse hasn't quite realised yet that he isn't going to get any link to a low-cost 226gpi fresnel. Egocys essentially has nothing but 2nd-hand theory (probably picked-up from other forums). The question of whether or not you would listen to one person who doesn't have a fresnel versus a whole group who do? Well you'd have to be as dumb as egocys to reject the comments of actual fresnel users. And egocy's response to this? "Well those people don't even know what GPI is." If you check my eBay advertisements from the links above - you should find that the groove-density is mentioned more than once. The system I sell gives breathtaking immersive gaming at a cost far below an i-glasses HMD at $1499 and below a $300 fresnel. The important thing is that the image-quality is great enough to convince many customers that they made the right choice. Those people have their fresnel systems. They have that practical experience. Egocys meanwhile does not. He is still searching for his fresnel and trying to convince others that they must follow his path. Based on 2nd-hand ideas and misconceptions. Great stuff, egocys. Not the brightest button are you. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Trashing a system without having any practical experience of it is pretty f***ing stupid | ||
| KuDawg Rating: N/A |
Feathers, I just placed in order for the setup kit, IM in the US, how long will this take to get to my house?? Kudawg | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
I just received your order. Delivery time is generally 7-14 days to U.S. The system will be sent via insured and registered airmail. Feathers. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
Kudawg... Do you work for a famous U.S. games company by any chance? | ||
| Lars Ahnland Rating: N/A |
Fethers, no one reads these long posts. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Is that an absolute statement? I really hate those. Who are you to tell others what they read? | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
As I recall, Lars - you are the person who spent several days questioning me about fresnel lenses via email many months ago. You found it hard to believe that the fresnel could work so well. And when you had enough information and were sufficiently convinced - you went and bought a lens from someone else. Nice. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
This has to be one of the worst forums I've visited. The stereo3d website itself is great. But this kind of open forum where people don't need to register to post is no longer a good system. It's open to abuse and that is certainly what I've seen here. There are opportunistic trouble-makers who spend their days looking to create arguments. I suspect that some of the posts here from non-fresnel users arguing with everything from SVGA to the purpose of this forum have been made by a small group. Often one person will tell his buddies and then his buddies will join in as well. Here we have a thread created for people who like fresnels and the majority of posts are made by people who don't use fresnels! I will continue to defend a technology that works very well (at 50gpi or higher). If some people resent my determination to speak out against non-fresnel users who like to stir up trouble then that's tough. Either change the forum and bring it up to date or accept the situation. Long posts? So what. I think it's sad that a thread created for people who like the fresnel should be overshadowed by people who don't have any real interest in it. Perhaps it's time for actual fresnel users to start posting their views as well? | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
to "Feathers" re to: "You then ask forum postees to find a source of cheap 226gpi lenses" Yes. I want to have choice for people and me. If someone can to find more HiRes fresnels under 300$ and will share this information with all stereo3d.com visitors then everyone will be happy. Except you because you have the motive to be angry because it will hurt your business (it is why you think that I am a bastard . Then I came here I've told to people where they can to buy a 226gpi fresnels. Now people have 3 choices instead of 2: A) CT ReadScope fresnels (unknown gpi) ($93 for 36"): http://www.ctscope.com B) IceTec 12", 50gpi fresnel http://www.icetec-uk.com C) HiRes (226gpi) EdmundOptics fresnel (300$ for 39") re to: "But this kind of open forum where people don't need to register to post is no longer a good system." Yeah and you will be moderator. So, you can easy to kick people who have skeptic opinion about your products or people who offers links to competitors. Then this forum will be good for you. It is a dream of every seller. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
I already have my own forum, you prick. You came here and told people where to buy a $300 fresnel? Big f*cking deal! Why don't you have one of those lenses yourself? Have you tried mounting a 30" fresnel from edmund? Not everyone can accomodate one of those things and it doesn't work too well with a small monitor. I don't have a problem with you telling people about other fresnel lenses. Just to prove this point - look back at instances where others have mentioned CT Readscope or http://www.maxiaids.com/store/prodList.asp?idstore=1&idcategory=195 I don't get angry or make any comment. It's not a problem. What I do have a problem with is some miserable f*ck who trashes all 50gpi fresnels and isn't even a fresnel user himself. And then to say that my customers are too dumb to know a clear lens from a blurry one. That is why you're an arsehole. No other reason. Surely you can understand that? | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
http://www.simkits.com/product.php?prodid=303)%20does%20not%20only%20enlarge%20your%2015 | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
http://www.display-optics.com/products_entertainment.htm "(it is why you think that I am a bastard " - You're a bastard because you come to this forum with the message that all 50gpi lenses are blurry. It's not true and it's not an accurate statement. You then disregard the comments from a whole army of fresnel users. And you are yet another person who doesn't have a fresnel and who lacks practical experience. So can you understand that I am going to be less than polite towards such a person? If you had come here and simply listed alternative sites for large fresnels or even small fresnels... It would not have been an issue for me. You came here simply to create trouble and you did this by trashing all 50gpi lenses. As a non-fresnel user that makes you a pretty nasty piece of work. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
It is this attitude that some non-fresnel users have shown here that really f*cks me off. They lack any real experience and trash any product without ever having tried it. They then act surprised when someone like me responds in an aggressive manner. Would you like me to present a "professional image" simply to boost my sales? The world is full of politicians who present a polished image while making problems for others. I am someone who uses fresnels and sells fresnel systems. No complaints from my customers. I have the attitude that I should present my true feelings rather than some glossy image. I therefore respond to aggressive posts (someone trashing all 50gpi lenses is aggressive) by stating my case as an experienced fresnel user. If you want to post more links to other fresnel retailers - fine. Absolutely f*cking fine. But if you dare tell me my product is shit and that my customers don't know the f*cking difference then I will come down on you like a ton of shit! | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
to "Feathers" I am telling that image quality thru 226gpi fresnel is better than quality thru 50gpi fresnel. And you are telling me that Volkswagen is the same car as Mercedes. Of cource for single 2D image one groove of fresnel can handle 3 pixels. But for good/precise Stereo image you need to map optically Right and Left pixels as precise as possible and good 226gpi fresnel offers less distortion than 50gpi fresnel. And no one needs to buy something to understand that 50 is less than 226. I am telling that to have choice between 50gpi and 226gpi fresnel is better than not to have choice. And you are trying to convince here everyone with: "you don't need better products, because mine is good". It is you who putting words in to my mouth: For example I've said: "most of them don't know what gpi is" and it was you who added words "dumb customers". I come here just to tell to people about more available options from different companies and you are treating me (and most posters) as enemy. P.S.: I am also big fan of Virtual Reality. From 1995 I've spend about $12000 on VR equipment (helmets, glasses), so I am not very interested in cheap low quality fresnel for $7 (but I will be happy to pay same price for HiQ fresnels and I think everyone on this forum agrees with me). Now I want to test fresnels with Stereo glasses. I don’t want to waste money on every available product just to test its quality (all sellers can provide good opinions about their products with "awesome/good/best/perfect", but it is no reason to buy any of them and to be happy without knowing about other options). I want to have maximum information about all options (quality/price) available. So, I can to recommend 3D solutions to my friends and customers. | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
You need to understand my quote "you don't need better products, because mine is good". as description of your methods. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
"I am telling that image quality thru 226gpi fresnel is better than quality thru 50gpi fresnel." - Agreed. "And you are telling me that Volkswagen is the same car as Mercedes." - No I'm not. I am disagreeing when you say the my 50gpi fresnel gives a blurry image. As a non-fresnel user you don't have the experience to say that. "I am telling that to have choice between 50gpi and 226gpi fresnel is better than not to have choice." - Agreed. "And you are trying to convince here everyone with: "you don't need better products, because mine is good". - Not true at all. I don't have a problem with you mentioning other products or linking to them. Don't make an issue out of something that's not true. Understand that you came here and posted a message effectively saying that all 50gpi fresnels were blurry and that only 226 was suitable for clear imagery. That is not true at all. That's why I got f*cked-off with you. "It is you who putting words in to my mouth: For example I've said: "most of them don't know what gpi is" - And your words: "I don't care too much about your "happy" customers or "praise" or fresnels of yours, because most of them don't know what gpi is. " - I made you say that, did i? "I come here just to tell to people about more available options from different companies and you are treating me (and most posters) as enemy. " - No. When I tell you that I don't have a problem with you listing other products... And you still don't listen? You came here and made a statement that 50gpi gives blurry image. You basically trashed all 50gpi lenses and then said my customers didn't know any better. That is f*cking nasty. And that is the only reason I think you're a piece of crap. "I want to have maximum information about all options (quality/price) available. So, I can to recommend 3D solutions to my friends and customers. " - agreed. So you see there is some common ground between us. I don't have a problem with you listing other products. This is a free forum. But if you look at your original post - it basically trashes all 50gpi lenses as blurry. And that is not accurate and it's not nice. So don't try to make out the problem is something else. Can you see where i'm coming from? We have a common interest in VR. We have a common interest in the fresnel. But the product I sell doesn't give poor results or blurry image. For a non-fresnel user to tell me it does is totally unaccaptable. A 30-inch 226gpi fresnel will give very good results. But it's not suitable for everyone. It's price alone excludes it from some users. But it's size can also make it difficult to use especially with a small monitor. There is a place for 30-inch 226gpi fresnel and a place for compact 50gpi fresnel for small monitors (17 to 19" or even 21" monitors). If you had come here with that attitude then we would not have had this argument. Higher GPI is better. But that doesn't mean a 50gpi gives blurry image. As a fresnel user I am more qualified to make that statement than a non-fresnel user. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
Excerpt from your original post: "I think most of fresnels have 50gpi (worse than monitor - 72dpi). It is why image quality is bad and image is blurred with these fresnels on hi-resolution PC monitors. " So in this one statement you trash all 50gpi lenses as "bad" quality and "blurred". The fresnel systems I sell are not blurred at all. There will always be some image degradation with any fresnel. That's why the military developed some special fresnels to maintain a higher image quality across their outer regions as well. Different to a conventional fresnel. Even your 226gpi fresnel will give some distortion and chromatic aberration. But image quality can be extremely high (high enough so that eye-strain isn't an issue) and for picking out virtual targets even far into the distance (where an i-glasses HMD cannot resolve such information). You came here with an attack on all 50gpi lenses. You then display mock surprise when I respond with anger. Now you try to convince others that my anger was as a result of you mentioning other products. If you had any real intelligence you could scroll back through the list of posts and see examples where other have mentioned other fresnel products from different retailers - I have not attacked those postees or made any comments. Why? Because they weren't making sweeping statements about 50gpi fresnels. You come here as a non-fresnel user, trash my product and then state that my customers don't know the difference between blurry or clear images. That's pretty dumb and very arrogant. "I don't care too much about your "happy" customers or "praise" or fresnels of yours, because most of them don't know what gpi is. " - A non-fresnel user telling a whole army of fresnel users that their opinions don't matter. Understand once and for all that i don't have a problem with you listing other products. But trashing my product and disregarding comments from actual fresnel users is not very smart. | ||
| EJocys Rating: N/A |
Ok, let's agree on that: For 2D image 50gpi fresnels are good and customers are happy. And for Stereo 3D you probably need fresnel with higher resolutions to reduce distortion (people are very different and sometimes very picky in measuring of quality). It was my mistake to mix conditions (we tend to ignore things we don't like and tend to pick/highlight (sometimes several times ) only those things which can to support our side). If in the future Ice-tec can to [re]sell HiRes fresnels and to offer bigger choice then it will be less misunderstandings and complains. And maybe you can add gpi specifications (and more info about impact of it) in to your FAQ so it will look more honest. And "yes" to: "There is a place for 30-inch 226gpi fresnel and a place for compact 50gpi fresnel" And answer to question "Why people are so skeptic about your products?" is very simple: Because every day these people receiving huge amount of spam and scam which contains lies about products which do not work or are overpriced. Just look how this topic was started. So don’t be so angry, because unfair sellers made them in to good skeptics. | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
Ok. The fresnel I sell also works very well with stereo-3d. That's how I use it myself. For almost all 3d games (except Rallisport Challenge) I use the fresnel and stereo LCS glasses. The only limitation with the fresnel is that it just doesn't work well at 800x600 in 2d. I recognise the value of different sizes and types of fresnel. A 30-inch 226gpi like the Edmund is great for some applications. Especially if you want to create a very large-screen immersive system. But a lens like that is a waste of money if you have a 17 or 19 inch monitor. You would really want a bigger monitor to get max performance and value from such a lens. Also it's not recommended to use an open-frame fresnel unless you make some kind of hood for it to minimise light reflections. For for customers who want a compact design that has an integrated lens hood then my design works very well for 17 or 19" CRT's. But I certainly wouldn't dissuade someone from buying a 30-inch or greater fresnel - if it's right for them. There will be a bigger choice as the technology becomes more popular with the home-user. At the end of the day I can only do so much to convince someone that the fresnel system works. I am aware of some of the scams out there (150" TV Projector lens). If you notice my eBay adverts (as listed some posts back) - I make clear the gpi of the lens. But I really don't have a need to post any warnings (other than to warn people about the thin-sheet camping store magnifiers) because my lens does yield clear images. It's not a problem to add GPI info to icetec though. If someone has a large monitor (greater than 21") then I would recommend a large fresnel. For 17 or 19 then my assembled cabinet works fine (the cabinet will be made from high-impact foam panels from Monday). A few of my customers have purchased bare lenses for use with 21" monitors (and reported excellent results). 226gpi 30"+ lens needs a big monitor to do it justice though. Of course a 200gpi lens approx 12-19" would also be good if it could be bought cheaply enough. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Good God let this Fresnel Nightmare end !!!!!! | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
I think we should all return to red/blue anaglyph and end the war. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Stereo Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Freshnels (2004) | ||
| Feathers Rating: N/A |
Lord of the ringed lens. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
http://www.weedboys.de/HL2/demo.php | ||
| Byakko Rating: N/A |
Regardless of how good fresnels actually are, they are not suited to my needs. They require some sort of monitor to be placed behind them... space I won't have. Thus, I am left seeking for a pair of glasses at a reasonable price (less than 2k, preferable around 1k). A pair with enough resolution and contrast to be able to easily read text... as well as perform fairly well for games/movies. Something confortable enough to be able to rest back into a a chair without having a huge piece of plastic driving into my head. Is that unreasonable to hope for? I suppose I may be forced to buy a laptop instead. In which case, I imagine the fresnel will work with it, correct? This really would be the less convinient solution, however. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
The fresnel will work with a laptop screen. The i-glasses HMD will allow you to read text with your desktop set to 800x600. It's not too bad with the windows desktop (reading emails etc). Problems arise when using it for games. It just doesn't have the resolution and clarity. This coupled with the problem of random colour/brightness variations. I certainly agree it would be nice to have a useable VR Helmet though. It would be the ideal solution. I just don't know of any unit (aside from military) with enough clarity for your needs. If you don't have the space for a CRT monitor - why not buy a flat-screen monitor and use it with the fresnel? A laptop imposes all kinds of restrictions for the games player (in terms of it's performance/hardware). Buy a TFT... | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
TFT's don't work for stereo if that is one of his requirements. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
That's true. No stereo 3d with laptop or TFT monitor. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Feathers, was it in the near future one can expect to see the testingresults with a headtracker on your site? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Well it's been a long time coming. The most recent project was to change the fresnel immersive hood to high-strength foam PVC panels. The first unit has been completed in the new panelling and it looks much nicer than the old design in card. Following Ejocys suggestion for a greater range of fresnel lenses - I have also been in contact with a new lens designer. We should therefore be able to cater for anyone with large-screen monitors (22" upwards) hopefully for a lower price than some other suppliers. I will be placing an order for a Track-Ir3 over the next week for testing purposes. Meanwhile - if anyone has a Track IR and a fresnel then please let us know your findings! | ||
| BOPrey Rating: N/A |
feathers, What is the focal length of your fresnel? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
235mm I believe. ?? | ||
| Byakko Rating: N/A |
Thanks, I appreciate the info. My situation is likely a bit different than most peoples'. My job involves working on an aircraft carrier for several months at a time. As for any naval vessel, space is somewhat limited... and it's best not to leave items left unstowed and unattended. I'm not a big fan of laptops (less power, harder to repair/change hardware, etc) so my plan was to buy a small form factor computer with a set of glasses. As mentioned, I was somewhat dissapointed with the current technology after doing a bit of research. While a flatscreen could work, that also implies that I'll have a stable flat surface to place it on - something I may not have always have the luxury of. Any ideas/suggestions? | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
If the issue is one of Carrier motion causing TFT monitor to fall onto the floor? Plastic velcro strips can be attached to the monitor's base. Heavy-duty plastic velcro doesn't shake loose and requires some force to peel apart. Of course if you have some shipmate come along and peel the velcro off the desk then you have a big problem! Another idea would be to use a powerful magnet set with one half of the magnet attached to the TFT base and the other under the desk (assuming the desk would allow). http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3281&item=5717419342&rd=1 I don't know what this VR helmet is like. I suspect it's probably very limited but it couldn't be much worse than the i-glasses HMD. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Hello Feathers, finally got the lens. No mounting instructions though, that's little bad. How are you suppose to mount it on the monitor?? Impressed so far. Was little surprised that it wasn't bigger difference with 3d glasses than without. Good news for non 3d-glasses owners. PS. I'm posting this Q here if someone else might know so I might have a quicker answer. Thanks | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"No mounting instructions though, that's little bad. " - That's why we have full mounting instructions on our website. Full colour pictures with assembly instructions. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Was little surprised that it wasn't bigger difference with 3d glasses than without" - The fresnel produces great results without 3d glasses. My own preference is to use with 3d glasses for most games though. Painkiller looks amazing with both systems combined. PS. The assembly instructions are in the VR section of the website. Under Fresnel housing I believe. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Hi Too bad I didn't know that before I started. I know I have done it the wrong way but the good part is that I have a very good and big picture. I made a box and then placed the lens on top. It's ok to laugh :-) So now my only problem is to mount it on the M. Actually, I really don't understand the guidelines so well. Well, maybe I can come up with something. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Jesper, You made a box and then placed the lens on top? The kit is supplied with the panels linked together and neoprene already cut and bonded. It's just a matter of folding the panels around the lens and then bonding the angle pieces to hold it together. The remaining panels are then assembled as in the diagrams. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
Jesper, You made a box and then placed the lens on top? The kit is supplied with the panels linked together and neoprene already cut and bonded. It's just a matter of folding the panels around the lens and then bonding the angle pieces to hold it together. The remaining panels are then assembled as in the diagrams. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Yeah. I placed the panels like a square, like you're supposed to do. But then I put the lens over one side with the help of the plastic hmm sticks or whatever they are called. I guess I didn't have so much patience :-) But before I tried it a little . I did that by holding the lens infront of the monitor and I thought that that picture was the best. Now I realized that the distance is more than twice of you recomendations. But the mounting is almost finished by now. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
If the lens is greater than 7 inches from the CRT surface then the image will begin to look blurred. | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Well only a little. But if you look right in the center of the fresnel then it's ok. Otherwise I could just cut little from the front of the box to make the distance shorter to the lens. But since I tried difference settings, my opinion is that you get more depth and the biggest picture this way but I agree, not the sharpest. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Recieved my fresnel setup from icetek.com a few weeks ago, the black neoprene works well to block outside light, but i find that gaming in complete darkness to be the best fit. I can't believe this post/rant/rebuttle has gone on this long, but just wanted to put a positive note on the setup. the immersiveness is truly impressive w/ the fresnel - i've done everything from shutter glasses, to dual projector polarized 3D, and the fresnel effect is worth checking out. i have a 21" monitor and was wondering if icetek will be offering a larger fresnel. i have to shrink my monitor settings for the 12" lens to fit perfectly. Also, what's the gpi of the icetek lens? thanks, cbrack at myrealbox dot com | ||
| Jesper Rating: N/A |
Agree with the last post, well worth the money!!. I get reflections from the monitor though. Haven't tested this on fligtsims yet but I will. X-plane, Search&Rescue4 and Fs2004 will be the next game for testing. Search&Rescue4 works very well with 3D-glasses by the way. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
My $.02 Keep in mind i've used a fresnel(just a fresnel). I didn't read this whole thread, but i did read half, and feathers handn't mentioned a couple things. Since a fresnel lens is basically a magnifier, it increases the size of pixels and if the game has sub-par graphics, you will notice them more simply because it magnifies them, and it looks grainy(i did anyway). It also takes just a tad bit of detail away from you. It also has a odd problem where contrasting light areas will form small rays of light(hard to explain). Most of these are not much of a concern, and over-all i do recommend trying a freznel, but i would go buy a $7 one first just to see the effect. Its pretty good. In Falcon 4.0, i used the fresnel with the "wide-field-of-view), it was pretty amazing. It really looks like an Imax theater when you put your face right up to the fresnel. In this case uping the resolution would be very nice, because you can see individual pixels, and other graphical flaws. When i played Mohaa, i played with it for about 1/2 the time, because the deatails of the game were much nicer just viewing with the CTR. Keep in mind i have a small lens for viewing 8x11 papers, and its a cheap lens. I've never used a really nice one. feathers, what kind of lens do you use? whats the quality vs. a cheap reading lens??? 800x600????,too grainy for me, time for a new graphics card? 1024 is just right for me, and if my gfx card can go up, i go. FOV within the game doesn't increase unless your program actually has a function to do so and actually puts more information on the screen. Don't get me wrong, the size of the "virtual" screen created by the fresnel gets bigger, but its just bigger. Again, i'd try it if you havn't, i just need to get a better one, and i think ill be set. Heres a good fresnel discusion: http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=17895&highlight=fresnel | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
The GPI of my lens is 50. The optical quality is very high. It's totally different to the cheap magnifiers you get from camping or stationary stores (they are thin, flexible sheets) and mine is a rigid lens made from optical grade acrylic. A cheap flexible lens is fine for testing the immersive quality but not good for long term use. "feathers, what kind of lens do you use? whats the quality vs. a cheap reading lens??? " - See the laser comparison on my website (www.icetec-uk.com). 800x600 is really not recommended for Fresnel use. XGA (1024x768 or higher) works very well. The Fresnel doesn't affect the game's FOV of course, but when people say the FOV is increased with a Fresnel what they mean is that the image expands out to fill your peripheral view to a greater extent. Lens reflections can be minimised by using a black AR material to line the lens housing but there will still be some reflections from the monitor directly on to the Fresnel. A Fresnel is a light reflective object and so the only way to reduce reflections completely is to add a different coating to it. One of my customers is intending to try an AR spray-on coating. If you look through the forum messages in the VR section of the icetec-uk forum: you will find his message. Another type of Anti-Reflection coating is the thin-film type. Unfortunately these always incur some light-loss. The reflections with fresnel housed in fully blackened enclosure and darkened room aren't too obtrusive. You don't really notice them once you get into the game. Very different from the milky haze you get with the i-glasses PC3d! Unfortunately that system is already lacking clarity due to it's LC displays and the internal reflections become a severe problem. "i have a 21" monitor and was wondering if icetek will be offering a larger fresnel." - Yes. I've been in contact with a new lens designer and so bigger lenses can be added to the shop soon. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"FOV is increased with a Fresnel what they mean is that the image expands out to fill your peripheral view to a greater extent. " - Meaning the image you see through the fresnel rather than the FOV the game presents. | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
"Since a fresnel lens is basically a magnifier, it increases the size of pixels and if the game has sub-par graphics, " - Actually I have made frequent references to the fact that a Fresnel magnifies the screen and so greater than SVGA resolution is required. I don't know which half of this thread you read, but I have said this a number of times in 'both halves". I also note that some of the users in the frugalsworld forum say they're using a 25" Fresnel with a 19" monitor. That is a waste of time since most of the lens would be wasted. A lens that size should be used with a much larger monitor. If you're going to use a very large fresenl (25" or higher) then make sure you have a large enough monitor to get the most from it! | ||
| feathers Rating: N/A |
PS. Whatever size Fresnel you use - it must have some degree of shielding from ambient light. Simply standing a large fresnel in front of a monitor without any light shielding is not a good idea. When buying a Fresnel - choose one that best suits the size of your monitor. For 17 or 19" - a 12" fresnel works fine (although some of my customers use 21" as well and generally give good feedback). For 22" or higher then a 19 or 20" Fresnel will suffice. The Fresnel should be chosen according to your monitor size and intended screen resolution. A 25" or higher Fresnel is great for a very large monitor or TV but then of course you must understand that the pixel resolution should also be increased to compensate. SVGA is generally not recommended for any size of Fresnel. XGA (1024) is good for 12" approx. Fresnel lenses. If you have a large screen monitor or TV then you should be prepared to run the game at a higher res to compensate. A fresnel magnifies and so pixels are more pronounced. So long as you follow basic guidelines then you won't have a problem. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Where can I buy a 19"x25" or larger Fresnel Lens in the US? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
If your using a standard 19"-21" monitor that would be overkill. On my 19" monitor I cut my larger fresnel down to 11"X14". That size gave me complete immersion. Your looking thru the lens at the screen. The image is not project on the lens. Feathers has given the technical reasoning somewhere up there in the last 200 posts or so. Someone metioned reflectivity being noticed while using their lens. You need to build a box to eliminate ambient light from entering between the screen and the lens. I used black foamboard with black tee-shirt material spray-tacked to the inside of the box to remove all the ambient light and any relectivity that was coming from the foamboard. It makes a HUGE difference. You also want the grooved side of the lens facing the screen. it helps to turn down the lights in the room as well to help eliminate any reflections on your side of the lens surface as well. John |
